Long arm of the Law (FrontSight legal issues)

I enjoyed my training from FS, but I have to admit that paying full price is way overpriced (like $500 per day). I can get private 1-on-1 training here in my own town for about half that much. I received my FS training for free, so no complaints here. Would I ever pay $500/day for what I got at FS?... not likely. It was good, but not that good. I don't know if anything is that good.

On the other hand, I think the plaintiffs are pretty dumb. I would never buy fish that are still in the ocean because the fisherman promised to catch them... Just like I would never buy property in a development that has not even been started.

From seeing the replies to the threads on gouging, more than a few folks on here would consider Piazza a successful venture Capitalist - Do or say whatever it takes to get someone's money, they shoulda known better.

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Not very High Road . . . :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

Maybe not, noskilz.

But it's the truth.

Do or say whatever it takes to get someone's money, they shoulda known better.

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It's not that they shoulda known better, though that is true... it's that you as a third party have no obligation, no reason, and NO RIGHT, to stop someone from spending their money however they want. You are trying to take that right away by blocking people from selling things because you don't like how they are selling them... I say mind your own business unless the person being fleeced is your kid..and if they are your kid you were a lousy parent.

there is an old saying couple actually one is a grifters credo "you can't hustle an honest man. the other is there is no such thing as a free lunch. both apply here

Having heard snippets and accolades about it...and, since Pahrump is ohhhhhh, an hour's Drive from here ( Las Vegas ) even with your foot in it, I felt all happy and curious about 'Front Sight', and, the possibility of enrolling for my first ever dab of formal Pistol Training.


Then looking over their Web Site, I began feeling a little annoyed and crestfallen...the prices, the manner of how things were strucured, the hedging how 'far' a drive Pahrump really is from here, the Glam-Photos of Mr. Front Sight himself, appearing all too similar to an average-trite B, or C column charater-actors' portfolio, or possibly a veiled tribute to a 'Village People' Album cover...


It all seemed rather schlocky, gratuitous, and tailored for assuring doughy Mary K or Farmer's Ins franchise holders, who in latter middle-life, decide to buy a Pistol, then seek 'lessons' they can feel assured will be free of any regular 'working' people they feed off of, rubbing elbows with them.


So, it all smelled kinda bad, or at least smelled not appealing, to me, anyway.


For what it's worth...and then too, I've sort of entered into a mildly curmudgeonly phase of consciousness-expansion or Life-phase, and lots of mundane-enough sell-schticks and posturings look fairly 'bad' to me...


So, not trying to pick on the guy, espeially while he's down...but, just saying...how the Web-Site struck me...



Phil
Las Vegas

"Maybe not, noskilz.

But it's the truth."

No it isn't, it's nonsense. That's all it is. Cheating people is not the same thing as setting a price and having people pay it. Cheating is when they pay the price and you don't deliver. Can't you tell the difference?

John

It's not that they shoulda known better, though that is true... it's that you as a third party have no obligation, no reason, and NO RIGHT, to stop someone from spending their money however they want. You are trying to take that right away by blocking people from selling things because you don't like how they are selling them.

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Except that ignores completely the whole idea of business, commerce, etc. If two parties enter into an agreement, and one of the parties refuses to honor the agreement, the courts are there to step in and rectify the situation for the party that is wronged in that case.

I doubt you'd be too happy if your mortgage company suddenly decided that your house is worth more on the open market then your mortgage is worth to them, so they evict you and place your house on the market.

"Completely ignores"? LOL...

Jaholder was claiming that what is alleged of frontsight is equivalent to practices which are commonly defended on THR as capitalism. That is in reference to the frequent threads here where someone starts whining about someone on gunbroker or at a gunshow trying to sell a gun for more than they think it is worth, often with references to current politics.

I dispute jaholder's assertion.

You agree with Jaholder? You are wrong. Sorry, but it's just that simple.

I don't know what FrontSight has actually done, only what some people are trying to sue them over. The allegations do not seem to correlate well with what people on THR defend as capitalism. In point of fact I think most on THR consider it fraud, though they may or may not believe fraud occurred in this case.

On the other hand, I think the plaintiffs are pretty dumb. I would never buy fish that are still in the ocean because the fisherman promised to catch them... Just like I would never buy property in a development that has not even been started.

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Someone may be foolish to pay for fish the fisherman promises to catch...but the fisherman needs to keep his word or refund the fools. Anything short of those two options shows the fisherman to be a con-man.

Saying someone is foolish is fine.

Spinning it like someone deserved to get cheated because they were fools is, IMHO, just as wrong as saying a woman in a short skirt deserved to get raped.

People may be unwise, but they are still the victims.

Calguns is reporting that FS was in fact in receivership, but is now out. How do you emerge from receivership in less than a week? Welcome to the mysteries of Front Sight's finances.

Having heard snippets and accolades about it...and, since Pahrump is ohhhhhh, an hour's Drive from here ( Las Vegas ) even with your foot in it, I felt all happy and curious about 'Front Sight', and, the possibility of enrolling for my first ever dab of formal Pistol Training.


Then looking over their Web Site, I began feeling a little annoyed and crestfallen...the prices, the manner of how things were strucured, the hedging how 'far' a drive Pahrump really is from here, the Glam-Photos of Mr. Front Sight himself, appearing all too similar to an average-trite B, or C column charater-actors' portfolio, or possibly a veiled tribute to a 'Village People' Album cover...


It all seemed rather schlocky, gratuitous, and tailored for assuring doughy Mary K or Farmer's Ins franchise holders, who in latter middle-life, decide to buy a Pistol, then seek 'lessons' they can feel assured will be free of any regular 'working' people they feed off of, rubbing elbows with them.


So, it all smelled kinda bad, or at least smelled not appealing, to me, anyway.


For what it's worth...and then too, I've sort of entered into a mildly curmudgeonly phase of consciousness-expansion or Life-phase, and lots of mundane-enough sell-schticks and posturings look fairly 'bad' to me...


So, not trying to pick on the guy, espeially while he's down...but, just saying...how the Web-Site struck me...



Phil
Las Vegas

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Very few people pay the retail prices quoted on the site. Many attend their first class on a certificate, which is like a coupon for a free class. The coupons are given out to members, and can be bought on feeBay. I believe the current rate is about $150. (There may be a Certain Member of THR, who has some he'd be willing to part with... ) If you use the cert for a 4-day class, that's, what, $37/day? If I get in the Advanced Tactical Hadgun class I'm singed up for later this month, it'll be my 8th class at FS, at just under $77/day. For a bit more than it would have cost me (with travel expenses) to take ONE class at Thunder Ranch, maybe two at Gunsite, I can take an unlimited number at FS. Even if we say the training at TR or GS is better (I have no idea, my be, may not be), it isn't infinitely better.

The Web site is schlocky, and Piazza is very fond of his own picture. (My first class, I partnered up with an immigrant from England, who was looking forward to getting his class certificate. He was going to frame it and hang it in his office. When the certificates were passed out, he said in a shocked Liverpuddlian accent, "Christ, it's got his picture on it.") Some of the marketing they've done is downright embarrassing, and I wish they'd class things up a little. But I'm not going to deprive myself, in order to deprive Piazza.

Wow! It's hard to believe some folks can't tell the difference between:

1) You agree to buy an AR from me for the ridiculous sum of $2500; you give me the money and I give you the rifle.

and:

2) You agree to buy an AR from me for the ridiculous sum of $2500; you give me the money and I don't give you the rifle.

(see second line of my sig)

I just got off the phone with Gina Good, the author of the article. Apparently Naish has until tomorrow to cough up a sizable sum of money (I think she said ~500k) to avoid going into receivership.

Naish is playing a cat and mouse game with the Plaintiffs. The plaintiffs or the courts do something, and Naish does some stalling tactics (see the Front Sight Management II fiasco).

I feel bad for the Non-Class members of Front Sight but Naish has gotta go. His slimy sales tactics and gimmickry give the entire gun community a black eye.

What worries me most is the business model of front sight is almost entirely built around frontloading revenue and backloading expenses. What I mean is, most attendees pay big bucks up front for a "lifetime membership." Now Front Sight has a commitment to pay instructors in perpetuity for the classes that that member will take in the future.

Unfortunately, it seems more likely that Front Sight is using new membership revenue to pay the operating expenses incurred by old Front Sight students. This is similar to the way a ponzi scheme operates.

IF Front Sight took membership fees and invested them and paid operating expenses with the returns on those investments I could understand the sustainability of the business model. However, as things stand today it doesn't seem like Front Sight has built a massive war chest, if they had, Front Sight wouldn't have defaulted on it's payments to the Settlement trust. This leads to only a few possiblilities.

1) Naish pocketed the membership fees leaving very little to pay to the Trust
2) Front Sight isn't the cash cow that it appears to be from the outside and so they have been under a legitimate cash crunch.

From the GunWeek article it seems like a mixture of one and two. More one during the early days, more two these days.

I hope Front Sight finds a way to stay in business, their curriculum is solid, and they provide an excellent entry point for novice shooters into the world of practical firearms ownership. I just hope they do it without a certified huckster like naish. I mean seriously, who offers members a "Two Day Secrets of the Ultra Successful" conference, at a Gun School. Gimme a break. (I'm not making that last bit up, check out the letter he wrote to the non-class members)

atek3

I didn't realize Front Sight Alaska was still open.

www.frontsight.com/alaska



"Dr. Piazza looking across Front Sight Lake toward the classroom and range facilities."

Naish pocketed the membership fees

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Okay, I'll play. Who is, or Why, Naish?

Naish is short for Ignatius Piazza, the founder and owner of Front Sight.

Got it. Sometimes I'm a little slow on the uptake.