Long arm of the Law (FrontSight legal issues)

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Mind giving us at least a sentence worth of description?
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He did. It's a copy of an email a friend, who is a former employee of front sight, sent him. He thinks it's interesting.

For someone who's signature reads "No Gods No Masters" you sure do spend a lot of time telling other people how & what they should post.
 
Frankly, who cares. Caveat canem and all that. It was an interesting read though. Sounds like the plaintiffs are a bunch of jerks.

Edit: Oops, I meant caveat emptor :)
 
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He did. It's a copy of an email a friend, who is a former employee of front sight, sent him. He thinks it's interesting.
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I get lots of copies of emails from friends that I find interesting - does that mean that I get to post random, descriptionless links to them on the forums I visit?

For someone who's signature reads "No Gods No Masters" you sure do spend a lot of time telling other people how & what they should post.
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What does my signature have to do with showing a little courtesy to one's fellow forum members?

And in case you need a review, this is from the "THR Primer on Courtesy", stickied at the top of this very forum:

Posting links: Don't post a link to a news article and let it go at that. Please post the first paragraph or a summary of the article. That would help members decide if they want to go to the linked article for the remainder of the story.
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Guess I'm not the only one who's annoyed by it, huh?
 
Guess I'm not the only one who's annoyed by it, huh?
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That may or may not be the case. However, I notice that the other poster had "moderator" after his user name
 
That may or may not be the case. However, I notice that the other poster had "moderator" after his user name.
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Rockwell - we're all moderators here. Part of why THR is the best, most civil and well-behaved RKBA forum on the internet is because we ALL have the duty and ability to point out issues when they pop up.

Now, if you have a problem with me, or the way I do things, I'd be more than happy to discuss them with you via PM - but let me just repeat the fact that I didn't ask the OP to do anything that the Mods and creator of this site haven't already asked. If you don't like the fact that I did so without the title of Moderator behind me, that's going to have to remain your problem.

Have a good night -

Kingpin.
 
Never heard of this place, but three men suing one company over membership benefit problems for an excess of $8million seems very frivolous.
 
After reading your last post I gained a better understanding of your perspective. I'm not sure I agree with it but I'm willing to disagree without being disagreable.

Thank you for your time
 
For what it's worth, I am disappointed with virtually EVERYTHING in this thread. This is very topical news article; FrontSite has been a very prominent firearms training center and is discussed here frequently. If a THR member's training class is potentially jeopardized by this legal action, I think that it's worth discussing.

Anyone that wants to be a Junior Mod, hit the 'report a post' button. Responding to the thread, in the thread, with negative inputs is not THR and is not acceptable.
 
The article:

Front Sight assets seized
By GINA B. GOOD
PVT



GINA B. GOOD / PVT
A lengthy line of shooting ranges is featured at the Front Sight site off the Tecopa road.

Advertisement


At 11 a.m. Monday, Front Sight Firearms Training Institute and its president, Ignatius Piazza, went into receivership.

All financial transactions involving the firearms training facility -- from accepting payment for classes to paying staff and vendors -- must take place through a court-appointed administrator.

The facility and all assets have been seized by the court, down to the hundreds of firearms included as part of new members' benefits.

However, despite the ruling, this weekend at Front Sight everything was "business as usual," according to Operations Manager Rick Morello.

He said he knew nothing about the legal proceedings. "We have a big weekend coming up with a full schedule of classes," Morello said. "Business is booming."

The ruling, handed down by U.S. District Judge James Ware in San Jose, Calif., had its beginning in November 2005 when Stacy James, Bill Haag and Michael Schriber filed a class action suit against Piazza on behalf of themselves and other qualified Front Sight members.

The suit mentions "violations of RICO, unfair advertising and competition, Nevada Sale of Subdivided Land Act, fraudulent conveyances, Consumer Legal Remedies Act, Interstate Land Sales Full Disclosure Act, breach of contract and fraud," all based on Piazza's sale of lifetime memberships.

RICO is the acronym for the federal Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act, originally used to target the Mafia and similar organizations.

The three men allege the price of the memberships they and the members of the class purchased were artificially inflated as a result of misrepresentations and non-disclosures.

On October 15, 2007, a settlement was reached and Ware dismissed the suit with the stipulation Front Sight live up to the negotiated terms. A settlement fund of $8,050,000 secured by a lien on Front Sight's assets would let the class foreclose if the fund was not fully funded by October 15, 2008.

Piazza was ordered to put 10 percent of Front Sight's monthly gross revenues into the settlement fund and provide financial documentation showing he was meeting his obligation. He complied, although according to the plaintiff's court filings, the payments were not timely, which comes as no surprise to former employees and suppliers in Pahrump.

The settlement also said Piazza had to allow members who were part of the suit to use their Front Sight memberships until the settlement fund was fully paid. Further, he was ordered by the court not to retaliate or make derogatory remarks against James, Haag and Schriber.

According to C. Keith Greer, attorney for the class, Piazza violated all the agreed upon terms.

At the end of the prescribed year, the fund was short by more than $5.4 million.

The day after the fund came up short, Piazza send a letter to everyone involved in the suit, saying Front Sight was no longer obligated to make additional monthly payments because the class action had forced the first mortgage holder on the property to foreclose.

"This is a lie as no one foreclosed on the property on that day or any day since," said Greer.

Piazza's letter also said Front Sight offered to increase its monthly contribution to the settlement fund from 10 to 20 percent.

Greer said bluntly, "That was also a lie."

But Piazza didn't stop there. He told class members they were "forever banned from Front Sight," which was another violation of the terms.

The same day Piazza sent a letter to non-class members, declaring:

"After they attended over 200 Front Sight Courses and pocketed $830,000 out of the first million dollars I paid timely into the Class Action Settlement Fund, the three malcontents and their ambulance-chasing attorney tried to kill Front Sight and terminate your membership by forcing us into foreclosure. So I cut them (and their followers) off at the knees!

"In this letter I reveal all the gory details and show you how the new Front Sight turned the tables on these back-stabbing saboteurs."

According to Greer, "Defendant Piazza also boasts that, in violation of the court order against encumbering the property, he created Front Sight Management II and signed a 99-year lease with the old Front Sight entity, leasing the land, water rights, entitlements, equipment, weapons, licenses, trademarks, copyrights, intellectual property, Internet sites, accounts, etc. Every asset the old Front Sight had is now leased by the new Front Sight entity."

Greer said it is clear Front Sight "violated every aspect of the court order and settlement agreement."

He added that Piazza did so "notoriously" and "in a manner that flaunts disrespect for the law and the judicial system."

Piazza's gorilla marketing technique of sending frequent e-mails with special price offers to prospective members give Greer and his clients easy access to information. They used Piazza's own words as evidence to show the court Piazza and Front Sight have the money to satisfy the settlement obligation.

On December 30, 2008, Piazza e-mailed members saying Front Sight had doubled in students, members and net worth each year for 12 years. He said, "While others are laying off people, we are hiring." He also said Front Sight had been offered a $25 million letter of credit.

Taking Piazza at his printed word, in March, the class asked to have Piazza appear in court with financial documentation Piazza agreed to supply in the settlement agreement.

In fact, Greer asked Piazza to live up to all the stipulations in the settlement, including paying the claims administrator and stopping interference with the membership rights of class members.

Greer also asked the court to order Piazza to stop publishing disparaging remarks about class members.

Ware granted the request, setting the hearing date for date for March 23.

Piazza did not appear, nor did he send any representative to appear on Front Sight's behalf. He did, however, fire his attorney at the last minute, which the judge called an "eleventh-hour dismissal" when he issued an order for Piazza to show cause why he should not be held in contempt of court and subject to sanctions for failing to appear.

That hearing to show cause was held Monday, resulting in Ware's decision that Front Sight had defaulted on its agreement with the class. All assets belonging to Front Sight and Piazza were seized by the court.

An administrator was appointed to run the organization.
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Never heard of this place, but three men suing one company over membership benefit problems for an excess of $8million seems very frivolous.
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Maybe you should do some research into the facts of the case before declaring it as frivolous. :rolleyes:
 
Can anyone who was or is a member of Front Site offer any validation to the lawsuit and settlement.

Were things promised that were not delivered or was this a ploy by a select few to take advantage of maybe over zealous membership offerings that were not delivered in exchange for money and classes?

It could be a warning to any club type membership organization with assets.
 
It did not annoy me. I simply opened the link. I, too, thought it was interesting. I have received approximately one email per day over the past couple of months with special offers. They must have been getting desperate. I am glad I did not decide to take them up on one of their deals.
 
bare bones schetch of the background.

Front Sight offers numerous levels of membership. Certian levels of membership also included buying a condo on front sight property. There were promises made about when ground would be broken, and when the condos would be finished. People paid ahead of time, as there was a limited amount of space. This is also how Front Sight was going to fund the project.

Front Sight did not go foward with the project in a serious manner, but simply kept the cash paid to them for the condos.

Front Sight was charged with fraud, and the case went to trial, but at the last minute Front Sight agreed to an out of court settlment for MILLIONS of dollars. The details available made it clear to me that Front Sight was indeed scaming and lying.

I suspect Front Sight was caught in a situation where they took the money in and then immediately spent it attempting to bring in more money...and when others did not also buy condos, all of a sudden they had no money to build with, and no money to refund. Classic pyramid scheme.

Now it seems that out of one side of his mouth, Piazza is saying 'we can't afford to pay' and out of the other side of his mouth he is saying 'frong sight is doing better than ever, don't fear that your lifetime membership will be irrelevant if we close down a year form now'

Piazza has ALSO clearly been ignoring the settlement he agreed to. I think it is interesting that two parties came together, worked out an agreement, and promised to adhere to it. Piazza breaks it, but some poster here labels the OTHER guys as jackholes?

That's wrong.

Taking someone's money and not providing them the promised product in return is also wrong. Addressing this wrong does NOT make you a jackhole.

Scamming people, taking their money with little or no intent on following through on your promises, THIS makes you a jackhole.
 
Piazza has ALSO clearly been ignoring the settlement he agreed to. I think it is interesting that two parties came together, worked out an agreement, and promised to adhere to it. Piazza breaks it, but some poster here labels the OTHER guys as jackholes?

That's wrong.

Taking someone's money and not providing them the promised product in return is also wrong. Addressing this wrong does NOT make you a jackhole.

Scamming people, taking their money with little or no intent on following through on your promises, THIS makes you a jackhole.
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From seeing the replies to the threads on gouging, more than a few folks on here would consider Piazza a successful venture Capitalist - Do or say whatever it takes to get someone's money, they shoulda known better. :scrutiny:
 
However, echoing a complaint contained in the lawsuit, the former student said that part of the “curriculum” at Front Sight’s Nevada facility amounted to a “sales pitch” similar to that offered by time share camping and condominium groups. The thrust of these presentations, said the source, who is not part of the lawsuit, was to sell memberships to the range, with a “First Family” membership ranging up to several thousand dollars. According to the lawsuit, a “Platinum First Family” membership cost one of the plaintiffs $175,000.

The lawsuit alleges that “Initially prices were set at $8,900 for a ‘Copper Membership,’ $23,000 for a ‘Bronze Membership,’ $90,000 for a ‘Silver Membership,’ and $300,000 for a ‘Platinum Membership.’ ”

The lawsuit further alleges that each of these memberships “gave purchasers access to certain courses free of charge, with the Silver and Platinum Memberships giving the purchasers access to virtually all offered courses in perpetuity.”

In addition, those who purchased Platinum Membership plans allegedly also were given a one-acre home site at the Front Sight “resort,” which the plaintiffs allege was a violation of federal and state laws regarding the sale of real estate.
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The lawsuit contends that Piazza sold memberships with promises to develop a resort community around the range complex, knowing that he was not raising enough money to ever “proceed with the plan as presented.” Over time, the lawsuit alleges, Piazza offered several different membership plans in order to raise money to cover expenses.

“As with any ‘Ponzi scheme,’ ” the lawsuit alleges, “eventually the pyramid got too big, and Piazza was unable to bring in enough new money from memberships to maintain the scheme without dropping membership prices precipitously. This exposed the problems being experienced by Front Sight, and the misrepresentations that had been made over the years.”

The lawsuit details various alleged “misrepresentations” made to Front Sight members, including assertions that Piazza, because he was “unable to raise sufficient capital through even reduced rate memberships,” had to take out a loan using the Front Sight property as security.

“In fact,” the lawsuit alleges, “at the same time defendant Piazza was disseminating glowing reports across the country about Front Sight’s success, Front Sight was unable to timely pay its employees wages or the company’s other financial obligations.”
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http://www.gunweek.com/2005/piazza1110.html

Also piazza himself seems to be lawsuit happy when he wants to shut down negative discussions

Then, in October of this year, Diana began hearing certain stories about the alleged connections between Ignatius Piazza, the head of Front Sight, and Scientology. After investigating these claims as best she could, Diana was very skeptical about them, and in effect dismissed them. Immediately after this, Diana received additional information -- and then the picture began to change, and serious questions began to emerge about the ties between Piazza and Scientology. Throughout this process, Diana contacted Piazza directly with her questions.

But the more information that came to light, the more likely it appeared that there indeed were some perhaps important connections between Piazza and Scientology. At this point, Diana sent Piazza a third email about these matters. In addition to providing links to information about the "disturbing" and "harassing" tactics of Scientology, particularly with regard to anyone who dares to question Scientology and its practices, Diana said this -- which is an issue that I think should concern anyone who seriously defends Second Amendment rights:

Front Sight filed a complaint naming Diana as a defendant on October 29
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Not surprisingly, people on various discussion threads are very upset at what they perceive to be Front Sight's high-handed, strong-arming tactics. For example, at The Firing Line, people said:

"How can you be a proponent of the second amendment, when you try to strongarm people out of their first amendment rights?"

"I agree ... this is classic Scientology material. They use the legal system to intimidate people with the threat of a lawsuit.
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And, remarkably, Glock Talk itself was threatened by Front Sight:

"Hi folks. I recently received a certified letter, from Front Sight Firearms Training Institute's lawyer, concerning negative posts made on Glock Talk. In addition to wanting me to ban an individual that made allegations against them, the message threatened legal action against this site if I didn't 'Carefully check posts in the future concerning Front Site'."

Subsequently, the administrator of Glock Talk said this:

"Hi folks. I just wanted to take a moment to post a clarification of my message concerning Front Sight Firearms Training Institute. It was not my intention to capitulate, by disallowing discussion of Front Sight here. My action was intended to deny them any exposure here at all, if they thought they could strong-arm me into removing negative content, while they benefited from the positive content that was left. I don't like bullies and have no intention of backing down. I sent a letter to them yesterday outlining my position, along with a refund check for their banner ad spot.

"Perhaps my actions yesterday weren't very well thought out, or maybe I should have made my intentions clearer, but I have no intention of bowing to such heavy-handed tactics. Front Sight and this site have had a relationship for more than two years and they have been a sponsor most of that time. For them to contact me via a lawyer, instead of calling or emailing me personally, was a supremely arrogant and singularly short-sighted act. It was also quite insulting. I do not need the money of a company that conducts business that way. Front Sight does, on the other hand, need the exposure sites like this can provide. They need the potential customer base sites like this can give them a chance to pitch to and yet they are trying their best to alienate that very audience. I don't understand their actions."
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http://www.raids.org/fsite1.htm

On March 23, 2009, the parties were scheduled to appear for a judgment debtor examination of Defendant Front Sight Management, Inc. (“Front Sight”) pursuant to the Court’s February 25, 2009 Order. (See Docket Item No. 170.)

Although Defendant Piazza was subject to a Court Order to appear as Front Sight’s representative for the debtor examination, neither Piazza nor any other Front Sight agent appeared on behalf of Front Sight. However, immediately prior to the scheduled debtor examination, the Court learned that Defendants had terminated their counsel. Although counsel, Mr. Williams, no longer had standing to represent Defendants, he requested that the Court provides Defendants sufficient time to find substitute counsel. Based on Mr. Williams’ representation, the Court grants Defendants’ request. However, to avoid further prejudice to Plaintiffs, on or before May 1, 2009, Defendants shall file either Identification of Substitute Counsel for Defendant Front Sight or Notice of Self-Representation for Defendant Piazza. Failure to do so will result in further sanctions by the Court.
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Another classic L Ron Hubbard tactic, drop your lawyer a day before court to get action delayed

http://www.frontsightlitigation.com/

http://www.frontsightlitigation.com/documents/Final_Judgment.pdf

To be fair, most of the instructors are NOT scientology nuts, and none of the scientology mantra is taught there. However, my personal believe is that Piazza uses scientology 'techniques' to get what he wants....i.e. to get people's money for his own use and grandizement, and not for what the people paid it to him for.
 
From seeing the replies to the threads on gouging, more than a few folks on here would consider Piazza a successful venture Capitalist - Do or say whatever it takes to get someone's money, they shoulda known better
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capitalism is fine. Fraud is not.

If I sell you a pizza for $100 dollars that has that value because claim I put 'hand picked mushrooms with fantastic taste' on there, and put some mushroooms on there, but the person eating says 'these don't taste much different from regular mushrooms! definately not worth an extra $80' I can say "Caveat Emptor" as I provided the services I promised

That's capitalism, people providing services to others willing to pay.

If I sell you a pizza for $100 dollars that has that value because claim I put 'hand picked mushrooms with fantastic taste' on there, but simply serve you a cheese pizza and say "Caveat Emptor" that is fraud, because I did not provide the services promised.
 
No offense to anyone, but if the advertising says one thing and the bill says another, that is a bait and switch to me. If a lifetime membership says 100 grand and I end up paying more after that to attend the school, I would sue them too. If I shell out that much and the ad says lifetime courses free, it better be free. I can understand your own ammo(although I am NOT sure if that comes with the course, if it did, that better be free with my lifetime membership too), but even if the 2/4 day courses offer a place to stay and food, I would expect all that not to cost either. Call me demanding, but it is what it is. I don't think lifetime membership claims should be claimed if they can't live up to it.
 
I'm a member. I was there this weekend for a rifle class.

Front Sight (not Site, btw) was originally envisioned as a gun-friendly master-planned community, with the training facility as its centerpiece. A place where a person could walk around with a 1911 on their hip, without any thought of drama with the police, all 1/2 hour from Vegas. Sounds good to me.

Home lots were sold, IIRC for up to half a million dollars. As I said, I was just there, and there are no homes, no streets, no sewer service or running water. (Lots of port-a-johns, though.) The people who bought the lots got screwed, and sued.

A settlement was reached in 2007. According to a court document fro March, FS has violated settlement terms, by not making required payments into a settlement fund, and has refused access to its books.

I haven't seen a copy of the order seizing the company, and this weekend FS's operating manager, Rick Morello, vehemently denied that such an order was issued, claiming that the Pahrump newspaper got it wrong, so at this point the truth seems to be up in the air. The facility is still operating as of this weekend, and they were still selling memberships. They have plans to build and offer... time shares.

I enjoy going to FS. I think the training is quite good, within its limitations. (All training of any kind has limitations.) Since I live in Vegas, it's a good fit for me. I hope they can stay open.
 
I know nothing of the lawsuit, but the Front Sight Challenge infomercials are awesome :)
 
I'm a member also. I really enjoyed the training I received. I hope that my membership didn't just become worthless.
 
"As I said, I was just there, and there are no homes, no streets, no sewer service or running water. (Lots of port-a-johns, though.) The people who bought the lots got screwed, and sued.

A settlement was reached in 2007."


Thank you for the update. I knew it had been a year or three since I read a handful of newspaper articles on the complete lack of progress with the infrastructure. And still no running water? Dang.

I'm certainly glad I'm not making payments on a lot for my retirement home. I sort of thought about it, but it's too far from my family here in Virginia.

John
 
From seeing the replies to the threads on gouging, more than a few folks on here would consider Piazza a successful venture Capitalist - Do or say whatever it takes to get someone's money, they shoulda known better.
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Wow, a total misunderstanding of capitalism... Do you even know what it means? You do realize that in capitalism, the people who paid Pizza would have gotten their condos and agreed upon items. That is capitalism.

Fraud is where the parties do not get what they paid for. That is Obamanomics.

There, your economic lesson for the day.

And yes, I know his name is Piazza.....
 
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