.38 +P+ Question

I have a box of this. It's ok, but I'd rather load the 158 grain LSWCHP +P's myself.

I think the FBI or some agency did issue this for awhile.

I've fired them easily from my 642 revolver. They kick less than the 158's above.

If you want to see a comparison between the 147gr Hydra-Skok's and other .38 caliber loads, you will find it on stevespages.com.

http://stevespages.com/page8f38special.html

"FEDERAL PREMIUM 38CAL.147GRAIN +P+ HYDRA-SHOK JACKETED HOLLOW POINT AMMO"


I chronographed these out of a 2 1/2" S&W 66 (which is nearly new) and got 848 fps. Ammo from the same box gave 952 fps from a 2 3/4 Ruger Speed Six (which is well used). This illustrates the fact you shouldn't believe what the factory claims or you buddy got from the same ammo.

It's good ammo and I've carried it in a 640. Your M13 should handle it with no problem. It was issued by several federal agencies that I know of but can't say if the FBI used it.

I wouldn't pay a premium price for it.

Well-made stuff (was issued by the Feebies), designed to meet the FBI penetration protocols. Here are two threads on the subject from last week:

http://smith-wessonforum.com/ammo/97094-anybody-still-carry-38-p-147gr-hydra-shok.html

http://smith-wessonforum.com/ammo/100813-another-federal-38-p-147-gr-hs-question.html

I get right at 900 fps (with really low spreads) from 1 7/8" snubs and about 950 fps from 4" guns. An FBI agent who's on the S&W Forum talked with Federal and confirmed that pressures from this round briefly spike over .38 +P maximums. I've shot it in a variety of guns without problems, but your guns could be different than mines. The version that I've shot uses low-flash powder, but I understand that another version might exist.

If it was meant only for 357 mag it would say 357 mag.Some revolvers say 38 +p on them meaning they are rated for plus p ammo I pretty sure +p will still fit in special chamber. Though I wouldnt make a habit of shooting them in a lite weight 38

I wouldn't consider it a "premier defense cartridge" by today's standards. I've found it to be extremely accurate in my 4" K frames and wouldn't worry using it for self defense but I think there are better options now.

If it was meant only for 357 mag it would say 357 mag.Some revolvers say 38 +p on them meaning they are rated for plus p ammo I pretty sure +p will still fit in special chamber. Though I wouldnt make a habit of shooting them in a lite weight 38

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There is a SAAMI Spec for .38 Special +P. The ammo he's referring to is +P+, which is loaded to pressure which exceed SAAMI specs. It will fit any .38 Special chamber, but is not safe for many of them.

...and may stretch (ruining the gun) the frame of a ".38 Spec".

I shoot them in 4" model-marked K frames without fear of damage. I don't shoot them in my Airweights.

#8 +P+, Son of Political Correctness

In the beginning... or way back when S&W introduced the 38 special handgun round ( early 20th century, not sure exactly when ) it became the most popular round for police use not long after. However, many noted that the original standard pressure loading with a 158 grain round nose lead bullet did not work very well. Then they developed the +P 38 special, more power and of course more pressure. That is what the +P stands for, more pressure. Then right before WWII S&W introduced the .357 mag, both ammo and gun. It was far and away more powerful than even the +P loads.

During the era before the wide spread adoption of auto loaders by police nation wide many officers wanted handguns chambered for the .357 mag because it had developed a much better reputation for stopping bad guys doing bad things then almost any other handgun and handgun round before. However, politicians, and this included the politically minded police admins, were reluctant to approve the .357 mag because so many ignorant civilians were against it. They though the .357 was too inhumane :banghead:

To get around this PC stupidity the 38 special +P+ was introduced. It was a 38 special round loaded to with in a smidgen of the power of the .357 mag but in the same shorter case as standard pressure 38 specials. That way the police could get almost all the performance of the .357 mag but they could tell the ignorant public that this was still just a 38 special. A rose by another name if you will

However, this meant that if they were loaded into older and/or weak revolvers that could only handle standard pressure 38s the guns could blow up. Because of this, the +P+ was never ( or at least supposed to be never ) sold to civilians in case they loaded them into the wrong guns and hurt themselves because of it. The ammo manufactures made all the police departments that bought the +P+ to sign all sorts of wavers so they would not be held responsible in case of any accidents.

Only use these rounds in good quality revolvers that are in good shape that are at least officially rated for +P 38s and even then it would be better to use them only in .357 mag revolvers. Be forwarned, however, that if you shoot them and your gun blows up you will have no one to blame but yourself.

oyeboten,

somewhat spun-off from the original topic, but I did once ask about these rounds vs. the old FBI round:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=414297&highlight=147

for further reading and opinions, FWIW.

I prefer them to the LSWCHP if I'm loading my .357mag up with .38s since I believe it will be a little better at barrier penetration due to it having a jacket. It doesn't recoil any more than my Federal 158gr LSWCHP +P which I use in my .38.

JellyJar, references please.

Jeff, I cannot cite any hard reference at the moment for JellyJar's comments, but I can corroborate them from my own memory and knowledge.

In brief, a number of agencies - including the Border Patrol, Treasury and the California Highway Patrol - ordered what is called a "Q load" from Winchester for one and probably other ammo companies. A "Q load" is a specific performance load which does not conform to SAAMI specifications and is provided only to the agency which ordered it - after signed agreements and waivers of damage claims. The ammunition is not normally marked as ".38 Special", but headstamped like military ammo. The loads are restricted in sales, not because they are 'too powerful' but to cover the manufacturer's kazoo against damage claims when some dimbulb forces a couple into Grandpaw's top break and cranks off a round or two.

The most famous of these was known as the "Treasury Load" and was used in the 1980s. They are safe in most any modern .38 Special revolver, but they are - uh - adventurous. They are really not so safe in older (pre WWII) revolvers, which form the level for SAAMI standards.

I apologise for not having hard citations.

This load (Federal +P+) was used by ATF when they still issued revolvers (and were still part of Treasury). I've got tons of the stuff, and it is stout. Nice fireball. Used in issue 66 and 640 revolvers - don't know about others. Indeed, it was issues in the mid to late 1980s according to my ATF source.

Sorry about the photo quality

That way the police could get almost all the performance of the .357 mag but they could tell the ignorant public that this was still just a 38 special. A rose by another name if you will


This is true. The agency I worked for (Treasury) did this for better public relations.

The most famous of these was known as the "Treasury Load" and was used in the 1980s. They are safe in most any modern .38 Special revolver, but they are - uh - adventurous. They are really not so safe in older (pre WWII) revolvers, which form the level for SAAMI standards.


The Treasury load was in use in the late 70s. The 110 JHP would hit about 1200 FPS in a 4". They were made for the Treasury Dept by WW and Federal. We were told they were safe to use in a steel J-frame. I didn't buy that but used them in a Model 64 with no problems.

Eventually, a couple of Model 60s had enough of these T-loads. The cylinders blew on both of them and on one the top strap parted company with the frame by the forcing cone. We were told only to use the Treasury loads in 357 rated revolvers.

I used the 147 +P+ in a 357 640 as I related above with no ill effects.

I have no references for what I related other than my own experience.

I'd love to get chrono data from those!

The Treasury load was in use in the late 70s.

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The most famous of these was known as the "Treasury Load" and was used in the 1980s.

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I'd love to get chrono data from those!

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I'll offer a correction to some of the information in this thread, on the original use of Treasury loads. Actually, they were in use in the early 1970's, and those were not that hot, in my opinion. The ones you see below are head stamped 73 and were issued to me that year. They were also issued to agents whose service revolvers were .38 Specials, not just .357's. I kept this box and chronographed it a couple years ago, and they averaged only 1077 fps, much less than the SuperVels of the same era at 1221 fps. Please note this is not the same as the +P+ that was later issued for use in BUG 640's. Hope this helps some.

Jeff82

Mostly I cite myself! I have been reading tons of gun magazines for well over 25 years and back in the 80s I read a couple of articles about the +P+ 38 special. I threw all the old magazines away so I could not cite chapter and verse unless I had access to a library that had all those old magazines in their reference section. Highly unlikely. However here is one reference off the internet:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.38_Special

A couple of years ago, there were two very long, ongoing threads about "hot" 38+P loads on the S&W forum / reloading. They started off a post by Erich (who also posts here), citing Speer #8 loads with 4756--with which he was running about 1000 fps, IIRC, from a 4" 38 Special barrel--with clean extraction, no pressure signs, etc., etc. The ensuing debate about loads being dumbed down in recent years, the reliability of current and prior testing methods, etc., etc., went on for 1000s of posts and spread over two threads. Unfortunately, I cannot find a link to those threads now--a forum migration on 1-11-2009 seems to prevent complete searching.

The debate attracted all manner of posters--one of who, writing under an assumed name, was apparently privy to the original testing and development of the "+P+" loads in the Seventies, IIRC. The bottom line was, these 'Treasury' / FBI loads run perhaps 875 fps from a 2.5" barrel on a 640.

Hoptob and I did some fairly comprehensive testing of the 4756 loads. The most (in)famous 38 Special version gets a 158-gr LSWC-(HP) up to a solid 900 fps from a 2" barrel. It also arguably has a pressure spike approaching 23,000. added on edit 2: or over 23,000--see hoptob's post here and the link he references.

I did some more anecdotal research about these hot 38 Special loads--they can best be seen in a historical context. At a time when LEOs still carried mostly 38 Special revolvers, overpressure rounds were developed to provide firepower to overcome criminals' superior (.357, .45ACP) firepower, or to overcome jurisdiction's penny-pinching to the relentless technological march towards semiautos.

There are several technical articles (my links to these are on another computer) that have examined these kind of high-end 38 Special loads as well--with conflicting interpretations. IMO, the varying interpretations can mostly be considered to be the result of imprecision in testing equipment (copper crushing was NOT that good, but it was what we had) and lack of standardization in the methods.

So, thirty-some years later, thanks to the (micro) computer revolution, piezoelectric (?) stress testing, and some standardization, we probably now have more accurate testing. Unfortunately, we also have a more litigatious business climate; the resulting application of of 'business judgement' to legalese CYA assessment has generally lead to lower pressure recipes.

FWIW, these +P+ loads can be replicated today fairly easily, if one is willing to load to those same pressures with the right powder. And, in fact, the Euro / CIP 38 Special standard seems to come very close to those 875 ballistics, on the right day with the right tweaks.

It's so much easier to do it in a 357 case, however. A 2" barrel, 900-fps 158 gr. load in a 357 case looks to be at a guesstimated 25,000 psi or so.

Jim H.

Well, you can get some of the Fed suff here. At that price seems like more of a novelty than anything else. I mean, you shouldn't have any qualms using it in a SD situation, just seems like there are better alternatives (is BB, Speer , CorBon, etc)

http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/catal...cial-federal-le-tactical-hydrashok-147gr-p-hp

If I remember correctly, SAMMI specs do not just measure the pressure of a couple of test loads. They use a statistical analysis which includes the standard deviation of the test sample. It is not the average pressure they care about but the statistically probable extreme pressure.

Maybe someone else can address this issue, but the net effect is that typical ammo will be loaded to significantly less average pressure than the max the spec allows.

This is an issue I have with ammo makers who do not belong to SAMMI. Their pressures while meeting the required average may on occasion significantly exceed max allowed. I think this is also the case with "+P+" contract ammo.