Effective .38 / .38+P defense rounds with modest recoil?

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P. Plainsman

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A petite and fairly recoil-sensitive relative of mine is thinking about a S&W 4" Model 10 (current production) as a house gun. Her choice is between the .38 Spl Model 10 and a .32 Mag Ruger SP101.

On the Model 10 side, can you suggest some good, commonly available .38 or .38 +P factory defense loads that won't tax the shooter, but will get the job done in a 4" barreled gun?

For example, it appears that the FBI load (158 gr LSWCHP +P), which would be my first choice in a Model 10, is a little too much for her. Federal Hydra-Shok 129 gr .38 +P is nicer to shoot, but some have criticized that round as underpowered.

Anyway, you get the idea. All suggestions appreciated.
 
Federal Nyclad 125gr. .38 special. Ammoman has them, but they have a five box minimum. ($119/250rds)

http://www.ammoman.com/

Federal also has 110gr. JHP Hydra Shok "Low Recoil" .38 specials that they claim does 1000fps at muzzle with 245ft-lbs of energy. (part# PD38HS3 H) Though this cartridge may fall under your "underpowered" category.


nero
 
Most of the bullets for self defense in a .38 are going to be +P rated....If the Hydra-shok round is too much for her then probably every other +P will be too, if it's not too much, then pick your favorite brand and try the various 125 to 130 grain offerings like the Remington Golden Sabers, Winchester Silver Tips or SXTs. Winchester use to have a standard pressure 110 grain Silver Tip and Federal had a 125 grain Nyclad in standard pressure but I'd be a little worried of not having enough penetration in the 110 grain weight.

Since there is no "magic" hollowpoint load that'll stop'em every time in any caliber, it really boils down to shot placement with a bullet that will get deep enough to reach the vital parts. I would recommend that she try a standard pressure 158 grain SWC - should be a controlable round, readily available and cost effective too, plus it'll do the job if it's in the right place. Grips that fit her hand would be a critical factor also...the better it fits her hand the more she can control.

Good luck,
Ken
 
I would look at the following rounds in this order:

Speer Gold Dot 135 grain +P
Speer Gold Dot 125 grain +P
Federal Personal Defense (or whatever they called the Hydra Shoks in the clear boxes) 110 grain

I have used all three of these and do not find any of them to be excessive with regard to recoil. I have arthritis in my wrists and elbows so I pay attention to such matters. These all work very well in a 4 inch barrel K frame and I even use the 135 grain rounds in my carry gun which is a S&W model 640.
 
For example, it appears that the FBI load (158 gr LSWCHP +P), which would be my first choice in a Model 10, is a little too much for her.
Click to expand...

Has she actually tried this round or do you think it'll be too much based on the ballistics? If she hasn't actually tried it, do have her try firing a couple cylinders. Through a full size Model 10 it shouldn't be that bad. A set of Pachmyr or Houge rubber grips really make a difference as well.

If not the 158 +P, then I'd have her try the Speer GD 135 gr +P designed for snubbies.
 
Valid question. We shot it once in a heavier gun than the Model 10 with equally nice grips (GP100). Not a traumatic experience, but I got the sense she preferred something lighter. I phrased the sentiment conditionally, though, because I didn't ask directly.

I'll probably bring the 158 +P FBI load again to our next range session along with the other rounds. I do share your view that if its shooting behavior is acceptable, it'd be a great choice. Frankly, that's what I usually load in my .357 when I pack it in the car.

Win 130 gr SXT .38 +P is another possibility. That round is mellower than the FBI load, not to mention much less smoky.

Speer's innovative new snubby-tuned 135 gr Gold Dot +P "mega-ashtray" is yet another prospect. American Rifleman gave it an encouraging writeup with ballistic info -- I believe it clocked in around 900 fps from a 2" Taurus snub. I had heard a few folks express concern that the Speer 135 GD round might overexpand if fired from significantly longer barrels than a 2"; anyone know anything about this?

Appreciate the continuing suggestions.
 
wow, with the 4" heavy barrel +P's always seem like a real pussycat in a model 10 to me--I agree that if she hasn't tried them, she should before deciding for sure based on experience in another gun.

Back in the day alot of old timers swore by the old 148 gr wadcutters, and lots of "pro's" even used to recommend them once upon a time, though that seems to be in disfavor now, and on paper they don't look impressive--don't get much milder kicking though...
 
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target wadcutters

according to the gelatin folks at firearmstactical.com, the 148 grain target wadcutter has adequate penetration and will crush/cut a full diameter hole.

Can't get any milder, as scubie02 noted.

It is all about placement, then penetration, then wound diameter - in that order. You have to put it where it is going to hit something vital, then it has to penetrate to (and thru) the vitals, then, the bigger the hole, the better.
 
I'd go with a .38 special+P 125 gr. JHP such as the Remington Golden Saber or a standard pressure 158 gr. LSWC. Recoil should feel about the same.

My 55-year old wife is a small person who is not into guns. She has no trouble handling .38 special+P Federal Hi-Shok 125 gr. JHP's in a 2 3/4" barrel Ruger Speed Six. I don't know if Golden Sabers are any better but that's what I recently replaced the Hi-Shoks with. My thinking is that they use newer bullet technology.
 
I have shot the Georgia Arms 100gr JHP 1,100 fps (4") .32 H&R Magnums from an 1895 Nagant - just over 4" barrel with a horrid trigger, but nearly equal to an SP101 in weight. It is quite mild - but would generate 268 ft-lb. I had 200, in nice new Starline brass, delivered to my door for $58 last month. The recoil momentum is ~74% of the following 158gr LHPSWC +P example.

I chrono-ed the Remington R38S12 version of the 'FBI' load, +P 158gr LHPSWC, to get 834 +/-5 fps from my 2" 10, 912 +/-16 fps from my 3" 65, and 994 +/-18 fps from my 6" 66. I would expect ~935 fps from a 4" 10, yielding 306 ft-lb. As you could use el-cheapo 158gr LSWC/LRN, readily available, it would probably be a better choice. The local availability of the LHPSWC's is nil, making them a special order item - $20/50 from my 'pusher' in a few days.

I would opt for the new 4" 10 for many reasons - ammo availability being foremost. And - they come with the backstrap-enclosing 'Uncle Mike's Combat Grips', probably the rounded version, that help with the minimal recoil. I swapped my new 2" 10's out for some nice wood service boots, and it is fine with thiose +P's... a real treat after trying them in an Airweight 637/642, in which they are brutal. The enclosed backstrap does help with the mild recoil. More help will be had with the .500 Magnum's soft rubber enclosed-backstrap Hogue grip like the one that comes from S&W Accessories for $35 - that one grip will fit K/L, N, and X-frame. It shouldn't change the trigger 'reach' much at all over the OEM UM's grips. try those stock grips first.

Stainz
 
I would try the speer gold dot 135 +P load. Natchez shooter supply has it for a good price last time I checked.

The model 10 is a pretty good size all steel gun. While the +P fare is nasty to shoot in a light weight snubby, it should be a pussycat in a heavy all steel model 10. The 4 inch barrel will reduce the muzzle blast to non existance, and large grip frame should also help tame recoil a good bit.

She can always practice with winchester white box or remington UMC FMJ which out to 15 yards should also hit to the same Point of aim. You can, as others have suggested, look for better grips the hogue rubber ones work for me and I really like the their wood finger groove grips in exotic woods.

Others like the pachmeyers because they cover the backstrap of the grip as well and cushion your hand a little more.
 
With regards to using the 135 grain Speer load in a 4 inch barrel gun; I asked Speer that same question and they told me that it was still the best choice. I use this round in both my model 640 and my model 15.
 
A good part of "recoil" to a new shooter isn't recoil at all, it's muzzle blast. Be sure your petite relative has GOOD earmuffs when she shoots. (BTW, my mother is petite and in her mid-70s. While she doesn't like .357s and flatly will NOT shoot any of my .44s, a .38 out of a K-frame gun is no problem for her.)

What kind of grips are on the Model 10? If they're just the compact skinny grips that follow the contour of the frame, try installing a Tyler T-Grip. By filling in some of the space behind the trigger guard, it repositions the hand and makes recoil feel milder.

Pachmayr rubber grips may help, if they're not too bulky for the lady.

If a 158 +P .38 Special has too much recoil, then about all you can do is move to a lighter bullet. I'd take a look at Speer's 135 grain +P snubby load, and Federal's 129 grain +P load.
 
Good thoughts. Actually, new Model 10s like this one come with very comfortable rubber grips. Hand-filling but not overly large. I forget who makes them for S&W -- don't think it's Pachmayr or Hogue -- but they're well done.
 
If the LSWCHP +P FBI load is too much, then the smaller, higher-velocity rounds are only going to be worse. In my experience the high-vel zipper bullets are harder on the wrists and on the revolver. Plus, I don't buy into their utility as defense rounds. I'd much rather have some straight SWC lead slugs in the 158 grain range. They will certainly cut a hole through someone.
 
With regards to using the 135 grain Speer load in a 4 inch barrel gun; I asked Speer that same question and they told me that it was still the best choice. I use this round in both my model 640 and my model 15.
Click to expand...



The Gold Dot bullet is a bonded core bullet which is designed to perform through a wide velocity window.

As to it's performance against the 158 grain SWCHP, it definitely outperforms it through the FBI protocol, and it has less recoil. It's not a particularly hot round either, and will be quite easy to shoot, and easy on the gun.
 
I have a box of Winchester 158 gr lead SWC. This is not a +P or hollow point round. The item# is X38WCPSV. This is a mild shooter and the weight + the SWC almost guarantees adequate penetration. This is a few years old, but may still be available.
 
Buffalo Bore .38's???

I fired a box of 20 a few months back and those are VERY STOUT .38 spl +P rounds. They were the .158gr +P LSWCHP config and BB rates them at 1000 fps out of a snubby. Boy I can believe it! Fired them out of my SP 101 in 3" bbl.

In fact, I couldn't tell the difference between them and the Remington .357 Golden Sabre 125 gr - a medium power .357 load. So, I figured, if they are going to kick like a .357 load, why not go for the real thing?

They are definitely an aquired taste and not for the recoil sensitive among us. Seemed pretty accurate, tho.
 
I think hornady still loads a 125,140
and 158gr non +P 38spl.My favorite
38spl is the black hills 125gr +P
using the gold dot bullet.1050 fps
from a 4" barrel.They have been very
accurate from a 2" M-15,2¾" ruger
speed 6 and my 3" 65-3.
 
I carry Hornady 125 gr XTP/JHP .38 Spl (Non +P) in all of my J-frames and my Taurus 85UL. For me , it is the most accurate with quickest recovery time for multiple shots. May differ for others, but does job for me. I look for penetration and accuracy. With snub I don't really expect much expansion.
 
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