Bullet Penetration

It's called
Full Metal Jacket
All the PENETRATION and more you could ever need

Now, might I suggest you learn about the SEARCH Function (third from the right, top green bar) as this is a well beat subject,
a much more pertinent and also well beaten

What type of ammo do you carry
Might I suggest one that works reliably, see there is your great answer.

I've gravitated towards more penetration over the years.

A couple of things have helped me along that path.

1. Lightweight, high speed bullets have seemed to fall out of favor over the years. The 90 grain 9 MM (remember "energy dump") of the the 1980's have fallen out of favor and the 124 grain (or heavier) bullets are now the preferred round.

2. I've also looked at hunting ammunition where bullet effectiveness has been studied formally and informally much longer and in greater detail than in personal defense. When hunters are hunting anything that can hurt them, nobody is using fast expanding rounds, such as hollow points or "ballistic tips". Those are reserved for things that won't hurt you. You practically can't find a hollow point in anything above .35 caliber (9 MM).

Does this mean every one should go to a 357 Sig shooting 125 Gr FMJ? http://intrencik.com/357sig.htm

I agree with JTQ, but most dangerous game is well over 200 pounds with thick bones flesh and skin then a large human.

i'm going to microwave a bag of popcorn, sit back, and watch this one intently

In general, the heavier JHP bullet weights penetrate more, 180 gr. 40 and 230 gr. 45.
357 Sig is mainly offered in 125 gr. so that's a simple choice.
9mm 124-127gr. is a good compromise for the caliber.

12" minimum, 15-18" preferred in properly calibrated (to FBI specs) ballistics gelatin.

It's called
Bonded Jacketed Hollow Points.
All the PENETRATION and more you could ever need

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WooHoo!!! Here we go again... This is better than season tickets to Six Flags. There will never be agreement on this one. Two camps diametrically opposed!!!

I heard a story of a local politician once. Seems two groups with opposing points of view had mistakenly got on his calendar to meet with him on the same day at the same time. After a few moments of listening - The politician told each group if they wanted him to agree with them, they would have to leave and come back one at a time.

Sectional density, weight, velocity.

Be your own judge. I, for one, am not concerned enough about penetration to pack FMJ's (unless in a small carry piece). I prefer either a .357 or .45 JHP for carry, and lately it's been almost exclusively .45.

I figure any decently large modern JHP is the best way to go (imagine that). Even if it doesn't open up, it will perform like an FMJ (which in the case of the .45acp has been proven battle worthy). I think everything in your OP is accurate, but I wouldn't think only of penetration when selecting an SD round. Expansion is important as well. There's definitely a balance of compromise one must reconcile.

I guess what I'm getting at is that I think in this day and age we are pretty well taken care of with major label JHPs. I trust in their penetration/expansion capabilities.

I have the capability of carrying 9mm reg or +p, 40 s&w, 357sig, or 45 reg or +p, all jhp. I can't decide what the heck to pack. I read somewhere that 9mm +p is equal to 357sig. Then I read that 40 s&w is the perfect cc round or is equal to 357sig. But then again 45 jhp is the greatest cc round unless you load 45 +p jhp. My head is spinning. If someone pulls on me I don't want to get shot with any of them, but I can't decide which one is the least effective for cc and in what order the rankings would fall...

.357sig would be like 9mm+p+ or +p++, depending on how hot the load is. it's definitely got more muzzle energy than 9mm+p.

.40 is not equal to .357 sig -- the bullets have a greater diameter (duh), are heavier, and travel faster.

i don't know that it really matters all that much. i wouldn't feel underarmed with any round you have listed.

.357SIG does nothing that a good 9x19mm won't.

"The statement that the .357Sig, “has the ability to defeat hard targets better it can expand more with an equal bullet type.”, is not supported by either our research or that of the FBI FTU Ballistic Research Facility in Quantico, VA.

When firing through heavy clothing, automotive steel panels, automobile windshield glass, interior wall segments, exterior wall segments, and plywood, both the .357 Sig Speer 125 gr JHP Gold Dot and 9mm Speer 124 gr +P JHP Gold Dot exhibited nearly identical penetration and expansion results THROUGH ALL THE DIFFERENT BARRIERS.

Several .40 S&W and .45 ACP loads offered superior terminal performance through barriers compared to the 9mm and .357 Sig loads."

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^^very interesting.

i wasn't aware of this. if there's no increase in performance, there's no reason to pay more for 357sig ammo, and deal with the extra noise/blast.

It's called
Full Metal Jacket

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did someone say my name?

Dog Wonder, I would consider this a great book (I have a copy) for more than one reason. MacPherson was aided in this book by Martin Fackler, and pretty much expresses the conclusions of Fackler's group, the International Wound Ballistics Association. The IWBA is a very prestigious group, and their scientific approach is second to none.

My main reason for buying this book was the technique for predicting penetration. The math gets pretty intense, but the graphs make it easier.

If I have a humanoid life form whose heart and lungs are 18" from the surface coming at me, I'm getting out my .350 Remington Magnum bear gun. Or, I'll just run away from him.

Kodiak don't break out the bruins or someone will start a damn "what pistol should I buy to go camping in Alaska with"

I mean, I appreciate you tourism dollars, but really people, if you're using a pistol on a bear, well you missed the smart branch of the creek and lost your paddle all at the same time

Back to bullets, The question was about penetration from a pistol, and while I personally carry HP in mine.

HOWEVER EVERYBODY IS MISSING THE DAMN POINT
penetration don't mean a thing if you don't hit something vital
listen we can spend the next week talking about energy dump, temporary cavities, hypersonic shockwaves and neutrino particle emission

If you don't hit something vital, it don't count, as this isn't a horseshoe forum, and hand grenades get expensive with the NFA tax stamp.

Let me wander in here to say, I know for a fact that a S&B 9x18 FMJ will take a Bad Guy out. I did it...

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So will a .22 short, but just because it's been done, doesn't make it the best choice. The simple facts are that the heart, lungs, etc, are an inch or two below the surface. Any good hollowpoint will reach them and do more damage than a FMJ.

The FBI wants rounds that will go through car doors and windows. That need has ZERO implications in self defense use.

Dare I say that the FBI conclusions are very relevant to me. I'm of the opinion that I want a round to have more penetration than less penetration. I like having the ability, as does the FBI, to damage a target when located behind certain barriers. Hollow points are great and serve a valuable purpose. I do feel that I can get ample penetration with HPs in my 45 and 10MM handguns. I know I can get it with my 44 mag. However, I do carry FMJ rounds (not hollow points) in my Browning 380 DBA. Just my opinion.

Sectional density, weight, velocity.

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To take c919's post a tad further...

We all know sectional density so I'll let that one be.

Weight...the more weight, the more momentum = more penetration

Velocity...here it starts getting complicated, faster ain't always better...and the same goes for slower. This all depends on...bullet construction (hard lead, solid copper, cup and core, bonded cup and core, frangible, etc.)

That should give em something to talk about...LOL

I thought we were talking about penetration.

Your post alludes to shot placement...

I ain't goin nowhere...done threw my 2 cents out there.

I've shot enough different things to understand penetration...I've fired a good many rounds to figure this stuff out just because ballistics interest me.

Your post is a blanket statement that is wrong on many levels...but that is off topic for this discussion.