A brief graphical analysis of the 9mm 115 gr. FMJRN and the .45ACP 230 gr. FMJRN

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Are you snowed in? :p

Yep. :D

Using a 9mm/127gr JHP @1250fps, let's assume max symmetrical expansion, 1.5xcaliber @2" (0.533"). Calculate total penetration, then calculate/display 1" segments on the deceleration graph.

You mean like this? (each x-axis increment represents 4.1mm of bullet travel)

9mm127VKEDecay1250.gif

Will the drag coefficient be the same between 0" to 2" and 2" to 13", or whatever the final depth is?

From what I've read thus far, the drag coefficient should increase as the bullet decelerates due to viscous drag effects exerting a greater influence than inertial drag effects.
 
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I love these threads that feature impressive math, charts, etc., but make comparisons of bullets that nobody uses for s.d. purposes. :cool:
 
Just for fun. Not everything has to have informational value specifically for defense. It can just be fun to compare....for fun.:)
 
I love these threads that feature impressive math, charts, etc., but make comparisons of bullets that nobody uses for s.d. purposes. :cool:

Oh, c'mon and enjoy yourself. :) It isn't all about FMJs, although folks some do use them for self-defense. Look at post 26- the chart relates to the behavior of a 9mm 127 gr. JHP at 1250 fps that expanded to 0.533".

I get the distinct impression that 2zulu1 was thinking of the Winchester Ranger 9mm 127 gr +P JHP when he framed his question- it is a highly respected JHP with an admirable track-record.
 
Oh, c'mon and enjoy yourself. :) It isn't all about FMJs, although folks some do use them for self-defense. Look at post 26- the chart relates to the behavior of a 9mm 127 gr. JHP at 1250 fps that expanded to 0.533".

I get the distinct impression that 2zulu1 was thinking of the Winchester Ranger 9mm 127 gr +P JHP when he framed his question- it is a highly respected JHP with an admirable track-record.
Yes, I was referring to the RA9TA.

I like the graph aspect as it can also be used to establish exit wound velocity. Also, the graphs illustrate and debunk the energy dump wound trauma incapacitation theory. :)
 
Yes, I was referring to the RA9TA.

I like the graph aspect as it can also be used to establish exit wound velocity. Also, the graphs illustrate and debunk the energy dump wound trauma incapacitation theory. :)


The QAS model also has a residual velocity equation that can be used to figure that out.

Relying on my trusty Excel spreadsheet to do all of the grunt work for me (I hate punching calculator buttons), a 9mm 127 gr JHP with an impact velocity of 1250 fps that expands to 0.533" would exit a 13" thick target at 232.5 fps.

Probably not fast enough to re-enter another human body according to the model found here-

http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2005garm/tuesday/hudgins.pdf

which says that it’d have to be moving at least 257 fps to do so.
 
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^^^^ This is really good information to know and put into practice given the concerns we have about over penetration. I decided to measure myself, chest front to back is 14". Rotate my body 90° and arm to edge of heart is also 14", my shirt size is 2XT.

While books have been written on the subject, I prefer carrying JHP ammunition that will reliably give 14"-16" of penetration, however, if I know I'll be in crowded environments, I'll drop down to 12" ammunition. These type graphs help visualize data in a way that printed numbers can't IMO.

I remember some time ago seeing a picture of Dr. Fackler pinning pig skin to a block of ballistic gel for the purpose of ascertaining the effects of skin on bullet penetration. Lots of data to digest in the above link.
 
In order to use an actual water test of the JHP we've been discussing, I took the liberty of liberating one of your prior water test images and the data for the 9mm Winchester Ranger 127 gr. +P+ JHP (RA9TA) that you shot against no barrier. Forgive me- your photography is far better than mine. :evil:

Winchester Ranger 9mm 127 gr. +P+ JHP vs. water medium:
9mm127PWinRanger1250fps1150grs0605004_zps68bcebfd.jpg


Here is the Schwartz bullet penetration model analysis for this test:

9mm Winchester Ranger 127 gr. +P+ JHP (RA9TA) - no barrier, water test medium

Recovered Projectile Data:

Average Recovered Diameter: 0.605 inch
Retained Mass: 115 grains
Impact Velocity: 1250 feet per second

Predicted Terminal Performance:

Penetration Depth (S) = 28.09 cm (11.06 inches)
Permanent Wound Cavity Mass (MPC) = 44.39 grams (1.57 ounces)

Also created a Velocity/KE chart- each chart division is equal to about 2.8mm of bullet travel:

Win127VKEDecay_zpsf80e8f44.gif

Not surprisingly, the exit velocity predicted by the Schwartz bullet penetration model is 153.9 fps after passing through 10 inches of soft tissue (between 91st and 92nd divisions of the chart above) - well below the 294.3 fps required for it to break the skin of, and re-enter, another body according to the US Army skin penetration model that I've been using to determine such stuff.
 
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If I were to do that test now it would be through five layers of clothing. Seems like our Canadian snow bird friends forget to close the door behind them. :)

Here's another 127gr Ranger bullet that didn't have enough remaining velocity, after passing through several one gallon water bottles, to fully penetrate this last plastic barrier.

9mmWin127Pcowbonewater006.jpg

Nice carry ammunition if you can find it, it also performs well against bone and the plastic can be analogous to skin.

9mmWin127Pcowbonewater001.jpg
 
It is impossible to reliably predict if a projectile will yaw during the penetration event (both the 9mm and the .45 are susceptible to this) let alone how much a projectile will yaw, if it actually does so.
9mm FMJ yaws and .45 ACP doesn't. The reason is because the center of gravity on the 9mm is located toward the base of the bullet - 9mm FMJ RN is much more "pointed" than 45 ACP RN.
 
9mm FMJ yaws and .45 ACP doesn't. The reason is because the center of gravity on the 9mm is located toward the base of the bullet - 9mm FMJ RN is much more "pointed" than 45 ACP RN.

That is not entirely accurate.

Both 9mm and .45ACP FMJRNs can, and do, yaw.

Even extremely oblate projectile profiles like expanded JHPs, which are far more blunt than the .45 FMJRN and have a CoG even farther forward than the .45 FMJRN, can, and do, yaw. The 9mm is arguably a little bit more prone to do so, but both the 9mm and .45 FMJRNs do indeed yaw and it is not possible to predict if, when, or even to what degree, either one will do so.

Still, the greater point remains- neither the Schwartz bullet penetration model nor the MacPherson bullet penetration model has an expression for the consideration of projectile yaw as doing so would render those models largely unusable/inaccessible to anyone lacking the requisite computational capacity to perform such complex calculations- something that I think both authors would find undesirable.

The proof of these model's accuracy is in their performance and by way of example, I've compared the Schwartz bullet penetration model's prediction against a couple of well-known examples that I am sure most folks here on TFL have seen before:


Example #1:

This .45ACP 230 gr FMJRN @ 869 fps has a total penetration depth of about 65cm or 25.6 inches:
45230FMJ-869_zps1414f835.jpg

The Schwartz bullet penetration model predicts a penetration depth of 25.7 inches.

The MacPherson bullet penetration model predicts a penetration depth of 30.3 inches.



Example #2

This "yawing" 9mm 124 gr FMJRN @ 1189 fps has a total penetration depth of about 71-72cm or 28.3 inches if you "straighten out" the upward curve at the end of the bullet's path:
9mm124FMJ-1189_zps746b7dc9.jpg

The Schwartz bullet penetration model predicts a penetration depth of 28.7 inches- that's pretty impressive.

The MacPherson bullet penetration model predicts a penetration depth of 30.9 inches.


:)
 
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If I were to do that test now it would be through five layers of clothing. Seems like our Canadian snow bird friends forget to close the door behind them. :)

Wouldn't mind seeing that test. It's a darned good JHP.
 
Did this for a member of another forum who inquired about comparing the .45 ACP 230 gr FMJRN @ 850 fps against the 9mm M882 @ 1300 fps and thought that my fellow THR members might enjoy it...


Here is the Schwartz bullet penetration model analysis for the 9mm 124 gr FMJRN @ 1300 fps (M882):

Predicted Terminal Performance:
Average Recovered Diameter: 0.355 inch
Retained Mass: 124 grains
Impact Velocity: 1300 feet per second

Penetration Depth (S) = 76.89 cm (30.27 inches)
Permanent Wound Cavity Mass (MPC) = 35.01 grams (1.24 ounces)

M882PCMvsPx_zpsb9497fdd.gif


M882VKEDecay77mm_zpsa1e9e2ea.gif
Note: Each x-axis graduation (100 elements) = 7.7mm of bullet travel



Here is the Schwartz bullet penetration model analysis for the .45 ACP 230 gr FMJRN @ 850 fps:

Predicted Terminal Performance:
Average Recovered Diameter: 0.452 inch
Retained Mass: 230 grains
Impact Velocity: 850 feet per second

Penetration Depth (S) = 64.47 cm (25.38 inches)
Permanent Wound Cavity Mass (MPC) = 47.67 grams (1.68 ounces)


45ACPPCMvsPx_zps53f0c666.gif


45ACPVKEDecay64mm_zps99c9ed23.gif
Note: Each x-axis graduation (100 elements) = 6.4mm of bullet travel

:)
 
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