Cosmoline
Member
Pretty much. And it's the model for what a lot of folks up top--D and R alike--would love to see the USA as a whole become.
A lesson in being too judgemental or How to be humbled.
- Thread starter leadcounsel
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Pretty much. And it's the model for what a lot of folks up top--D and R alike--would love to see the USA as a whole become.
in an ideal world you are correct. however mistakes happen even to the best of us, be it forgetting that a range bag you carried two years ago still has a speed loader in one of the pockets, or forgetting to make sure your vehicle is in gear so it wont roll backwards on you when you get out of the vehicle(happened to me once). try as you might, you will make a mistake that will cause you problems.
well if you have a better idea to prevent terrorists from hijacking planes, or blowing them up, perhaps you need to contact the government and the airlines and tell them. understand however there is no right to fly, just like there is no right to drive. also remember that the airlines are private industries, and regulated by the government, and thus if we want to fly anywhere we have to follow their rules.
sonier
Member
I think airport security, is an absolute necessity, im sorry for those ive offended. if you got a problem with airport security drive your car or stop complaining. The reason we have it is to prevent innocent people from dying. Ive thought about writing a letter to denver TSA to tell them i accidently had a .22 cartridge in my pocket and went through extra screening as well, and that they may need to look at this gap of security and fix the issue.
oldbear
Member
Leadcounsel, thanks for admitting you are human and from time to time can err. I can’t come close to keeping up with all the bonehead stunts I’ve pulled over the years. The real trick with mistakes is not to keep making the same one over and over, learn from you error and move on.
rbohm and sonier, so it is your belief that the TSA is actually keeping you safe from anyone who wants to hijack an airliner? WOW. I don't have a problem with security but not at the cost of throwing the Bill of Rights in the trash can. I do have a problem with airport security because it is nothing but a theatrical show for dumb people. Maybe there is no right to fly and no right to drive but I do recall something somewhere about freedom from unreasonable search and seizure and a basic right to self defense. People like you who are willing to give up the freedoms your fathers fought for to "feel safe" are a major part of the problem. How many years did the FAA and the airlines tell us not to resist the hijackers and to just cooperate with them and everything would be okay? Do you really believe that stripping people of their right of self defense and any means to do so makes you safer? How pathetic. If you want to trust your life to some TSA clown or the Department of Homeboy Security, good luck. May your chains rest lightly upon you. And oh, sonier, the Govt. is supposed to follow our rules last time I read the Constitution. The airlines are private industries regulated by the insurance industry and the liability lawyers, not the Govt.
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sonier said:
Well they might take at as helpful advice and use it to correct mistakes or they may decide your letter is an admission to a crime, bring criminal charges against you and/or bar you from ever stepping on an airplane for the rest of your life. With the TSA it could be anything.
I wouldn't say anything about it.
BeerSleeper
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rbohm said:
Allow ccw on the planes. Is that not the argument we make here? Legal possession of firearms is a crime deterrent, and valuable defensive right. How far will a few terrorists get, if 10% of a 400 passenger plane is carrying?
All the security restricitions in the world aren't going to stop them. So what if you take away all their shampoo and nail clippers. They could just buy every seat on the plane, and take it over with raw barehanded manpower.
Security isn't the problem...it's the BS "security theater" designed to make the masses "feel" safe, while not actually adding to safety that bothers me.
Chemical explosive sniffers-effective. X ray for luggage and passengers, somewhat effective. Not allowing knives, very dubious. Anyone can (illegally) carry a large ceramic, polymer or titanium knife right through. There were no issues when knives were allowed either, sure 9/11 with their idiotic box cutters (they could have had real knives), but they can still do that with alternative materials.
All the silly "no fluids, knitting needles, etc, etc" Absolutely useless and annoying. Not using common sense criteria for searches, but idiotic, random ones where security is wasting time with an 80yo handicapped lady, useless.
Yes, CCW would help, or more palatable: pass legislation like the bill that allowed all LE officers to carry in the US and extend that to flights.
Ammo and such (speedloaders, magazines) poses no security hazard at all absent a firearm...
Chemical explosive sniffers-effective. X ray for luggage and passengers, somewhat effective. Not allowing knives, very dubious. Anyone can (illegally) carry a large ceramic, polymer or titanium knife right through. There were no issues when knives were allowed either, sure 9/11 with their idiotic box cutters (they could have had real knives), but they can still do that with alternative materials.
All the silly "no fluids, knitting needles, etc, etc" Absolutely useless and annoying. Not using common sense criteria for searches, but idiotic, random ones where security is wasting time with an 80yo handicapped lady, useless.
Yes, CCW would help, or more palatable: pass legislation like the bill that allowed all LE officers to carry in the US and extend that to flights.
Ammo and such (speedloaders, magazines) poses no security hazard at all absent a firearm...
orionengnr
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Ludicrous.
As a 20+ year airline employee, I have a few TSA stories to tell.
Better that I don't though, as I might end up on (yet another) list...
sonier
Member
I really do believe airport security does help deter crime in such a terroist form or other types, and i dont think its such a great idea to let concealed carry holders on planes, I really dont want to be on that plane that joemoe tryed to stop a terroist and instead punched a full clip of 9mm through the planes fuselage.
sonier
Member
afterthought the fluid thing is ridicoulous. i saw a kid getting hassled for having deodrant this kid was like 12 years old it was absurd.
sonier
Member
I bet you a good mount of money if i accidently had leadcast 357 mag bullets loaded that they would go through a airplanes walls
Didn't mean for my comment to sound overly critical. I've been a gun owner and IDPA shooter for a long time. I carry guns and ammo around a lot. I've just never had a problem keeping track of this stuff. So my thinking is that if you have a speedloader turn up by surprise somewhere unexpectedly, that maybe you're being a bit lax in your handling procedures.
And yes, that's something that can happen to anyone. But we try to minimize such problems.
Big agreement here that most of "airport security" is theater and has little to do with safety. We gave up way too much liberty for a gauzy illusion, and are now being accustomed to having uniformed pissants screaming at us and forcing us to humiliate ourselves before petty authority figures. It is an insult to the soul.
And yes, that's something that can happen to anyone. But we try to minimize such problems.
Big agreement here that most of "airport security" is theater and has little to do with safety. We gave up way too much liberty for a gauzy illusion, and are now being accustomed to having uniformed pissants screaming at us and forcing us to humiliate ourselves before petty authority figures. It is an insult to the soul.
You're absolutely right. So would a 9mm, for that matter. And... absolutely nothing much would happen. Oh, the passenger compartment would depressurize a bit, and the oxygen masks might drop from the ceiling. In the cockpit, a little warning light would come on somewhere, and the pilot would make arrangements to land at the most convenient nearby airport. That's pretty much it.
An airplane isn't going to come apart in midair because you shot it with a handgun, any more than a car is going to explode from being shot with the same handgun. They're both different versions of the same Hollywood myth.
R
xcgates
Member
I see the big problem with airport security is the assumption that once you get past the security, nobody can do anything dangerous. Someone will always be able to find a way around security. So we now have a plane full of people who have been stripped of what I consider basic tools. I use knives every day for anything from fixing my car/bike, opening packages, fixing other things, food, etc.
And no, I don't fly, the last time I flew was when I had orders to fly, two years ago.
And no, I don't fly, the last time I flew was when I had orders to fly, two years ago.
gc70
Member
I moved to the Gulf coast in 1985. Shortly after the moving van was unloaded, my boss call and said there was an emergency and I had to get to Little Rock ASAP. I called and got a plane reservation, scrounged through boxes to find some suits and remembered I had a bag in the car with a week's worth of underwear and some toiletries, so I was off to the airport. I made it to within a dozen feet of the metal detector before it dawned on me that my underwear bag was really heavy. I stopped at a bench and dug through my underwear bag until my hand encountered... a 6-inch N-frame .357 that I had put in the bottom of the bag because the moving company had refused to carry firearms. I dashed back to my car and left the gun in the trunk.
leadcounsel
member
Well these are both very interesting arguments - I will preface my comments that I am about as PRO CCW as you can get. However, I recognized that there are situations where you have to surrender your sidearm for the overall good; eg. courtrooms, political speaches, and airplanes for instance, and just rely on the provided security to handle the job.
Think of the choas a BAD person or a group of BAD people could cause if you were allowed to CCW on an airplane and these 10 BAD people planned a coordinated attack. If their goal was to just simply to bring down an airplane over a populated city, that would be easy if they could ccw on the flight. So in reality your ccw would be useless if 10 others started a surprise gunfight. Everyone on the flight and many on the ground would perish, and the cost would be in the tens of millions of dollars. And this scenario could play out at a coordinated time on the same day across the world or nation. No thanks. As much as I hate the security checkpoints, and I rarely fly if I can drive there instead, I'll prefer (common sense) TSA measures, even if some of it is smoke and mirrors.
Sometimes you've just got to briefly surrender your rights to participate in the overall good and efficiency of the system.
As for flying vs. driving, whoever said you have a choice is generally right. Unless your business forces you to fly, you can drive. And in reality you can check your firearms and get them in a few hours when you land, and yes you are safer by not allowing the BAD guys to ccw on the flight, even at the cost of disallowing all, because flights are a unique micro-world where gunplay can easily result in a lose-lose situation for all aboard.
Liquid and plastic explosives exist and are potent. As for liquids, fluids, and hygiene products, I've had to throw away a few new tubes of toothpaste and was really really annoyed. But let's be reasonable- you're flying on a multimillion dollar plane with hundreds of strangers, all with families, etc. At the cost of a few dollars in hygiene products, I prefer them to get confiscated rather than the potential for them to be liquid or plastic explosives.
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ninja45
Member
Last year I took a vacation with my wife and flew to my homeland (Philippines) to visit friends and family. I had a backpack where I have my laptop and all its accessories (recharger, external hard drive, etc). We went thru very thorough security check as we were flying international. When we arrived in Manila, we had a connecting flight to another city. We had three security checkpoints before we were even allowed to board the plane.
We got to our destination, I unpack my backpack and in one of its pockets found twleve .40 S&W hollow points! I almost had a heart attack! I would still be in prison if not for the angels who blinded the security inspectors both in US and the Philippines!
We got to our destination, I unpack my backpack and in one of its pockets found twleve .40 S&W hollow points! I almost had a heart attack! I would still be in prison if not for the angels who blinded the security inspectors both in US and the Philippines!
The problem with giving up your rights "for the overall good" is that some politician or judge gets to decide when it is "for the overall good". I believe that they need to ask the permission of the governed before they do this. They believe that they do not. They seem to have lost sight of the fact that they are supposed to be working for us. This is the difference between being a citizen of the Republic or being a subject of the Democratic State. As a child I pledged allegiance to the Republic. As a member of the military I took an oath to defend the Constitution. I plan on continuing to do so until they zip me into a body bag. I will not bow down and surrender my rights as a human being to any judge or any politician.
BeerSleeper
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sonier said:
You prefer instead to find out what the terrorists plan for your plane is? A half-cocked, unplanned attempt at resistance is not good, but is better than no resistance at all.
Who gets to determine which rights should be given up? You wouldn't want me to make that determination, and I wouldn't want you to do it.leadcounsel said:
No, you don't. That's why we have a Constitution - to remind us that when people say things like that, they are wrong. If the Founders wanted to restrict the 2A, they would have.
Now, to the TSA, they are probably the govt org that drives me the most crazy, and I honestly believe that they are not only ineffective, but a bunch of bullies to the American people (forgive me if anyone here works for them). This thread is a perfect example of how easy it is for well meaning, law abiding people to accidentally carry weapons into a secure area. Now, imagine what someone with evil intent could do with a little forethought.
I don't advocate for no security at airports - I don't think anyone here does. But, I do advocate that we address the problem with a certain amount of realism. Notably, a knife or a gun isn't going to bring down an airplane - if the cockpit is not accessible. The TSA should be concentrating on watching for suspect behavior, scrubbing passenger lists, working with the FBI on what's going on, etc. Imagine, if they actually got rid of all the TSA agents you see and with the same budget hired well trained detectives? I still wouldn't be very pleased to be living in a nanny state, but at least it would actually be somewhat effective.
Remember the story about a homeless man who walked passed security at the STL airport and fell asleep on a parked plane? That's all you need to know about the incompetence of that organization. Why can't the county sheriff be in charge of the security at his/her airport? (They aren't on federal land) At least that way when you get hassled, you can get things changed or vote him out the next time around.
Roswell_Kid
Member
rmfnla´s post (#9) brought back a memory.
A few years ago I flew a sold aircraft from Orange County up to Hayward, the buyer´s pick up point. I would fly back commercial from San Jose.
I had cleaned out the aircraft of course, but a final check at Hayward revealed that a small ¨guest overnighter¨kit containing things like a throwaway razor, new toothbrush and toothpaste, had worked its way up under the pilot´s seat. I tossed it into my backpack.
The TSA morons stopped the belt on my backpack and promptly confiscated that toothpaste and tossed it into a waste can. It was in a sealed box. I politely objected, and the "agents" responded with a condescending attitude.
Got home and felt around in the map case for a Garmin portable GPS that I thought might come in handy on a road trip, and discovered the loaded NAA .22 Mag mini revolver I kept as a last ditch survival tool. TSA had been so anal considering my evil tube of toothpaste they had let the map case go through without a glance. Their stupidity, my luck.
A year later they unboxed and broke a mountain bike I had checked. It had been professionally packed in a bike shipping box clearly printed with manufacturer logos. When it was finally released to me the box was in shreds, a shift lever broken and the $100 trip computer "lost." TSA´s justification: there was a place on the box where a logo for Arizona´s Dynamite mountain bike trail appeared.
I´m not kidding.
A few years ago I flew a sold aircraft from Orange County up to Hayward, the buyer´s pick up point. I would fly back commercial from San Jose.
I had cleaned out the aircraft of course, but a final check at Hayward revealed that a small ¨guest overnighter¨kit containing things like a throwaway razor, new toothbrush and toothpaste, had worked its way up under the pilot´s seat. I tossed it into my backpack.
The TSA morons stopped the belt on my backpack and promptly confiscated that toothpaste and tossed it into a waste can. It was in a sealed box. I politely objected, and the "agents" responded with a condescending attitude.
Got home and felt around in the map case for a Garmin portable GPS that I thought might come in handy on a road trip, and discovered the loaded NAA .22 Mag mini revolver I kept as a last ditch survival tool. TSA had been so anal considering my evil tube of toothpaste they had let the map case go through without a glance. Their stupidity, my luck.
A year later they unboxed and broke a mountain bike I had checked. It had been professionally packed in a bike shipping box clearly printed with manufacturer logos. When it was finally released to me the box was in shreds, a shift lever broken and the $100 trip computer "lost." TSA´s justification: there was a place on the box where a logo for Arizona´s Dynamite mountain bike trail appeared.
I´m not kidding.
I read a story a couple of years ago that was in one of the UK papers. It seems that someone somehow left a .22 short round laying in the doorway outside of a business. The owners called the cops and they came out and almost treated it like it was a bomb. The comments from both the police and the workers were hilarious.
If I can dig up the article I'll post it.
If I can dig up the article I'll post it.
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