.22 Hornet questions

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NOFX

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Hi guys,

Have some questions about the .22 Hornet.
What are your opinions on the 35gn loads? What do you guys think of them?
I know that they start of faster but they also slow down faster - and lose their punch faster(?). But the Hornet is only a small game round designed to be used to around 200mtrs so will it matter?

You see I'm about to start loading for it and am tossing up whether to use the 35gn loads or 45gn. I use my hornet for rabbits and foxes but I would like to know that if I use the 35gn loads if I come across a wild dog or dingo (or something similar sized) they could effectivly dispatch it if needed (hence why I'm thinking of using the 45gn pills).
I would appreciate any and all your thoughts on this matter.

P.S. My Hornet is a Brno and I absolutely love it. It is the sweetest little rifle I have ever handled. It's accurate too! After owning and using one it's not hard to see why the little Hornet is still with us.

Cheers,

Russ.
 
Welcome to the HIGH ROAD NOFX

The 35 gr bullets available from Hornady #22252 (VMAX) , Berger#22002 35 gr FBHP, or the 33 gr TNT FBHP Speer , are deadly out to 100 yds @ velocities 2800 fps or above, for fox or big jackrabbits. If you can put a 35 gr. into the boiler room of a dingo at 100 yds or so he isn't going to go very far !

Your dingos look to be heavier than our coyotes, and if I were shooting the Hornet at them out to the 200 meter mark I would go for the heavier bullet, 'cause that is really reaching out there for the Hornet.

May I suggest the 40 gr VMAX , it will give a you a litlle better edge on energy and velocity to the longer ranges, and some Hodgdon Little Gun powder, both of the components have really livened up many a Hornet, and they will give velocity @ the
3000fps with the 40 gr VMAX and 12.5 -13 grs of Lil'Gun.


Of course I know some of our components may not be available to you so you may have to use the traditional 45 gr SPFB Hornet bullets.

Your BRNO must be SWEET!,I shoot a Savage Mdl. 40 Varmint Hunter single shot bolt rifle with a Simmons Pro Hunter 4X12 variable scope, I shoot at and sometimes hit, groundhogs (marmot) ,coyote, feral cats.

The Hornet is a HOOT especially handloaded, I usually can keep my favorite loading of the 40Gr Vmax and 12.5grs Lil'Gun into an inch @100, but going out to 200 is above my ability .
 
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Those little pills can be devastating.

However, as you've recognized, they don't have the highest b.c.'s.

I've had outstanding success/results with the 40gr Sierra HP. I load it to 1.780" oal, over 12.5gr of Hodgdon's Lil-Gun powder, and Winchester small-pistol primers. It get right at 3,000fps from my 24" bbl. Ruger M77/22 KBZ Hornet. (Gray stainless, w/brown laminated stock). The 1.780" seating allows it to work through the magazine.

Accuracy is the best this rifle is capable of. (1.25moa, occasionally better).

For the 35gr bullets, use either H110, Win296 or Alliant #2400. I've gotten some excellent accuracy with the #2400, but velocities my be a tad less than with the other two. Seat the bullets to the recommended depth because the less the run-out, the better the accuracy with these little pills. I have gotten some good accuracy with them seated to contact the rifleing, however, so you you may need to experiment with your rifle. I've got a reduced velocity loading of 8.0gr of #2400 that gives about 2,300fps. Duplicates the V-max loading of the .22wrm. Also, at 9.8gr of #2400, it's near 3,000fps. With 11.2gr of H110, I get 3,150fps which roughly duplicates the factory loads. My rifle dosen't like anything heavier than this, though I have gone as high as 12.5gr for like 3,300fps. Hard on the brass, though, and not as accurate in my gun. Be careful if using warmer loads, as you WILL get case head seperations. Not fun the deal with either...... ask me how I know....!

Niether of my recent Hornets particlularily shot well with the 40gr Ballistic tips, and due to the lower cost of the Sierra's, they've been my favorite.

I've taken one deer (yearling buck, approx 90lbs) with the 35gr V-max. It entered the ribcage just behind the shoulder, and disintegrated on the heart. There was a softball sized void in the chest and the bullet scattered bits of lead fragments inside the opposite chest wall. Amazing destruction, but less than 8" penetration. Choose your shots well with this bullet.

Contrast this with the "big game" type expansion and penetration delivered by the 40gr Sierra's, and 45gr Remington HP. I've not seen one fail to completely penetrate a deer of less than 135lbs.

For larger animals, and longer range shooting, you'd be better served with the 45gr Hornady "Hornet" as it's a pointed soft-point, or one of the 50gr bullets, such as Midway USA's "DogTown" bullets. These over 11.8gr of Hod. LilGun willl give ~2,700fps and excellent down range trajectories. Less wind drift than the 30-35gr bullets.

I really enjoy my "Hornet". Don't use it a lot, but couldn't imagine doing without it. It see's much more use than the .22-250 or .223. Much cheaper to feed !!
 
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Would you care to elaborate on your reloading methods? I am considering an arbor press with Wilson collett neck sizing and seating dies...can't figure out if this is best or if I should get conventional single-stage sizing/seating die set.

Also, I get some wavy crimping in new brass when fired. Will resizing take this out? Is it safe to reload? What might cause this? (I know Hornet brass is thin.)

I reload pistol ammo but I'm new to loading for rifle. I'm trying to decide whether to start with the Hornet or go to other calibers like .243 Win or 7 X 57 Mauser to get some experience first. Your thoughts?

Thanks!
 
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i shoot a brno fox in .22 hornet and use little gun with good results. eastbank.
 

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Toml,

A lot of Hornet shooter/reloaders neck size only. One popular method is with the Lee Collet die, it is very easy on brass doesn't require any lube and is inexpensive, it works well with a standard press, but the setup you state would also work well.

Yes the cases are thin but with a good chamfer and a boatail design bullet you will have little problem seating the bullets without crushing the case, especially with the Wilson seater die and arbor press.

Why not get a Lee Classic Loader, it uses the same method as the Wilson dies and you won't have to buy the arbor press ?

Sounds as if you already own the rifle from you statement about the fired brass, are you sure the rifle is chambered for the orignal Hornet, and not a K Hornet ? That could account for "wavy" brass. If the rifle is chambered for the original, you could have some chamber problems, if the brass comes out deformed.
 
Thanks for the info, dagger dog. I'll look into these tools, since they seem t o be less costly than the Wilson gear.

It's an unaltered, 1946 Standard Grade. I'm sure it has not been rechambered since it has been in my family's possession all this time. I'll try some loads to see if they crush during feeding rather than when fired. If not, I agree with you that there may be a chamber problem. I'll report back.
 
I usually load with 40 gr. V-max's. Much better BC than the 35's (they have a slight boat tail and much longer/narrower ogive). I don't have my load book here at work, but IIRC, 10.8 grs. H-110 gave around 2,800 FPS.
 
I can't answer your question; however I wanted to share with you my love of the 22 Hornet. What a sweet little riffle. I main use mine for fox, wood chucks, coons, coyotees. I buy 45 gr SPFB Hornet bullets. My hornet is a 1947 Savage Model 322A. My Grandfather bought it new. he killed several deer with it and hundreds of ground hogs. I try to limit my shoots to 150 yds.
 

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A word of caution if you want to load the 40 grn V Max for a Brno. I have a Brno Fox and have to limit the powder load to allow the projectile to be seated well into the case to fit into the magazine. I have found the 35 grn V Max to shoot brilliantly in my Brno and it has stopped some medium sized animals, but I worry about light projectiles if they are pitched against larger targets at long range, so I want to perfect only one load for all shooting. The 40 grn V Max is good, but the Hornady Hornet 45 grn projectile gets the same size group in my Brno and easily fits into the magazine, so I intend to focus only on this projectile for my small to medium game shooting. I use the Australian ADI 2205 powder and find it excellent, I use this powder purely due to reliability of supply, (and it works well!). Any tips on the Brno Fox would be appreciated.
 

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no,

Thats one BIG jackrabbit :D. Y'all down there have a whole gang of varmints that I ain't seen ,except on the tube.

Is that a Russel terrier? Good looking dogs, and the wood on your Hornet looks great.

Sorry I can't help , but I bet if you hang around on the forums here on THR you'll will find plenty from others.

Welcome
 
word of caution if you want to load the 40 grn V Max for a Brno

Good point. My Hornet is a single shot, so OAL is of no concern. But the 40 gr. is considerably longer than the 35 or other bullets intended for the Hornet. As I load them, they are at 1.835" - alsmost 1/8" over the max listed length.
 
nodirect, your rifle looks like mine, mine has has double set triggers and came with 3 magazines and factory brno rings with the recoil stud on the rear ring and was made in the 70,s serial number 195xx. i has a 43 win in hornet and it just would not shoot. the brno shoots just about any load into .5 at 50 yards. i found it for 350.00 and its a super walk around rifle out to 150-175 yards on small to medium game. eastbank.
 
Thanks so much for all your responses guys.

I think I am going to go with the 40gn in front of 11.5gn of W296 for around 2870fps. I just read an interesting article about a guy who uses the 40gn pill and it works well on rabbits, hares, foxes but also works well on medium (around the 30kg mark) game (dogs, dingoes etc...). The 40gn holds together and gives good penetration when larger game is concerned. Once again I will not use my Hornet as a medium game round, but if I do see a dog, dingo etc... I will feel confident with my rifle that it will do the job.

Russ.
 
Sunray,

In Australia mate. Just about to move from Vic to Western Australia.
 
The .22 Hornet is the first true varmint cartridge. In 1922, the Army decided to build a quality .22 rimfire rifle for training, target competition, and for sale to encourage marksmanship. The rifle was built at Springfield Armory, using the same tooling and fixtures as the M1903 Springfield -- and many M1922 parts will interchange with the M1903.

Craftsmen at Springfield were among the first civilians to buy this new rifle. As anyone who has shot one can tell us, the M1922 was not just a good competition rifle for its day, it was also a good hunting rifle. The boys at Springfield tried it on game including woodchucks. And there they encountered problems. First of all, a 'chuck is a pretty hefty critter, weighing several pounds -- much bigger than a squirrel or rabbit. Second, 'chucks are usually found in pastures, and your average 40-acre pasture is a quarter mile square, 440 yards on a side. So shots at 'chucks tended to be long range -- too long for the .22 Long Rifle.

The boys at Springfield cast around for a better cartridge, and the found one, the .22 Winchester Central Fire (WCF). The .22 WCF was developed in the mid-1880s as a black powder cartridge. Apparently the intent was to produce something with more oomph than the .currently available rimfires and to be reloadable.

The black powder heritage is apparent when you look at the case. Black powder combustion products are from 40% to 60% solid (depending on composition) and that's what creates all that fouling. A small bore, plus a large charge makes for real fouling problems. The case is therefore tapered, with a sloping shoulder -- that makes it easier to extract from a badly fouled chamber. That same shape also makes for less than stellar accuracy. Especially when coupled with 19th Century standards in manufacturing -- a standard .22 WCF case is a pretty sloppy fit in a standard .22 WCF chamber.

The .22 WCF didn't set the world on fire, but it did hang on until the 1920s, when the boys at Springfield developed a smokeless powder load that better than doubled the velocity of the .22 Long Rifle, and with a 45 grain bullet, rather than a 40 grain bullet, which was more or less standard in the .22 LR. They then re-chambered M1922s for the .22 WCF, and modified the bolt, firing pin and extractor. The story is that when Colonel Townsend Whelen first shot the smokeless powder version of the .22 WCF he remarked, "Boy, that's a hornet!" and the name stuck.

The Hornet was adopted by Winchester, and was soon surpassed by other .22 centerfires, but it has seen occasional times of modest popularity. The general pattern is a new generation of shooters are intrigued by the idea behind the Hornet -- a little case, a little bit of powder, and a fairly mild report with very low recoil. But then reality sets in, the Hornet just isn't that accurate.

I admit to falling prey to the lure of the Hornet -- my Hornet is a Kimber M82, and I've had it for many years. Here in the Ozarks, it makes a fine crow and coyote rifle. Sharp-eyed people may note that Arkansas game laws specify "nothing larger than .22 rimfire" for crows. But there is an exception -- during coyote season. Coyote season runs from the First of July through the 28th of February, then starts again about a week or so later with the opening of Spring turkey season, and runs through the 13th of June. In other words, it's pert' near always coyote season in Arkansas, and you can use the Hornet on crows to your heart's content.

My M82 is a beautiful little rifle, but it just wasn't all that accurate. To me, the Hornet is like a red-headed woman -- alluring, frustrating, attractive and capricious. Being a rather stubborn type, I set out to master the Hornet, and eventually developed a load that will regularly shoot sub-inch groups at 100 yards. Here is the secret to the Hornet.

1. Fire form your brass. The case is a sloppy fit in the chamber, but once fired in your rifle, it is a perfect fit -- in your chamber.

2. Disturb the brass as little as possible. The standard reloading die puts a lot of stress on a case, and Hornet brass is thin. We have to remember that when neck resizing, all the force is transmitted from the head to the neck through the walls of the case. I use a Lee Collet Die, where the only stress is radial.

3. Don't resize the whole neck. The Lee Collet Die is designed to size the whole neck and activates when the base of the collet tube contacts the shell holder. You can't adjust it by screwing it in or out. I put a couple of washers on the shell holder, around the case. The collet tube contacts the washers and activates early. You can look at my neck-sized cases and see a line around the neck, about half way between mouth and shoulder. The unsized portion of the neck acts as a pilot, centering the neck in the chamber.

4. Use the right powder. I use Hodgdon's Li'l Gun. Li'l Gun has a lower but more prolonged peak than other powders. It is therefore able to achieve high velocities at lower pressure. Typically, a case full of Li'l Gun will develop about 28,000 CUP, and the Hornet's max is 40,000 CUP. I don't weigh my charges, I use the case itself as a dipper. I fill the case and strike it off (draw a straight edge across the case mouth to brush off any excess powder) then tap the case lightly to settle the powder a fraction of an inch. This load breaks 3,000 fps over my Shooting Chrony.

5. Use the right bullet. No rifle will shoot more accurately than the bullets it is fed. I use the 35 grain Hornady V-Max. It shoots accurately, and is deadly on everything from crows to coyotes. But it has one even more important characteristic. Hornets usually shoot best when the bullet is loaded close to the origin of the rifling. This usually results in an overall cartridge length that won't feed through the magazine. V-Max bullets in .22 caliber all have about the same shank length -- the weight differences comes in the length of the nose. The 35 grain looks like it started out to be a round-nose bullet, and changed its mind at the last minute. You can load the 35 grain V-Max out to where the shoulder of the bullet actually touches the origin of the rifling, and still have an OAL that will feed through the magazine.

Follow these five steps, and you will produce .22 Hornet ammunition that will shoot as accurately as any other varmint cartridge, and will bring out the full potential of this fine little round.
 
Dagger Dog, yes that's a Jack Russell Terrier, a great little hunter that just keeps on going.
Eastbank, my Fox is stamped 71 by the look of the mark, serial number 18960. The twin triggers make for improved accuracy and the stock is slender and fits nicely in my hands, good to carry and use. Spare magazines are rare here, I recently bought one for US$69.00.
 
Anyone able to tell me about their experiences with the Brno Hornet, which do they prefer to carry and shoot, the ZKW 465 or the Fox II? I have a '71 Fox and am looking at a ZKW 1949. I enjoy my Fox, but am aware that quality went down hill after the Ruskys invaded. If a woman can own many pairs of shoes, should a man own many rifles??
 
Cz hornet

I shoot a CZ 527 LUX hornet,it is a tack driver for sure,the cz does not like long bullets though (imho).
the 35 and 40 vmax in front of 12.9 grs of li'l gun gives me 1/2 inch at a 100 all day long,it shoots the shorter Nosler and Sierra 45 gr great also.
1:16 twist is too slow to stabilize bullets heavier than 45 grains but man does this rifle shoot,and the set trigger is sweet.
 
The .22 Hornet's origins are the source of many of its problems. It is the old black powder .22 WCF updated with smokeless powder loads in rechambered M1922 Springfields. That accounts for the generous (some would say "sloppy") chamber dimensions, the tapered case and the slow rifling twist.
 
The Brno was made in Czechoslovakia, the CZ is made in the old Yugoslavia confederation, from a geography perspective there is a big difference. I have a .223 Zastava from Yugoslavia with CZ moulded on the butt plate, it is of the finest manufacture and shoots nicely after many thousand rounds – wouldn’t sell it for anything. Same goes for my Brno Hornet. Forget about the history of the round, too many people want to give us a history lesson on Hornets, look at the targets that we are shooting with them, a brilliant small game caliber that provides an added challenge to reload and bring animals down with it, some times quite large animals.
 
Forget about the history of the round, too many people want to give us a history lesson on Hornets, look at the targets that we are shooting with them, a brilliant small game caliber that provides an added challenge to reload and bring animals down with it, some times quite large animals.
Knowing the history of the Hornet helps understand why it is the way it is -- and that leads to solving the problems. One key to making loads that shoot accurately is to fire-form the cases, then to disturb the brass as little as possible.

I use a Lee Collet Die (which exerts pressure radially, not from the base of the case) and "adjust" the die by putting two washers on the shell holder. This results in only the front half of the neck being resized. The unsized portion of the neck acts like a pilot, centering the bullet in the throat.
 
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