Can't Get Excited about the Shotgun

Most of your points are inaccurate, to say the least. It sounds like you really need to spend some time reading this subforum, asking questions, shooting and getting to know your weapon better. Shotguns are a wonderfully versatile tool and - as long as you understand their limitations and trade-offs - are about as close as you can get to a do-everything gun.

Just a few points about this I'd like to make. Most regarding home defense.

-If someone broke in during the night, I'd grab my revolver first because I know it's 100% reliable, more maneuverable, and leaves me a free hand to open doors, hold a flashlight, or make a phone call.

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A stock with a pistol grip and an 18" barrel solve most of those problems.

-If there was a threat outside on my property, I'd be more hesitant to use a shotgun because there are more stray projectiles to account for going off target into neighbors' houses.

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Shotgun pellets, and even buckshot, travel a hell of a lot less distance than revolver rounds. The whole reason people use shotguns for home defense is they have less penetration. Outside, for example, assuming you used birdshot (though I wouldn't), you'd merely pepper your neighbor's walls and maybe chip the paint.

-Its 7 + 1 capacity is less than most non-bolt action rifles. It's also slower to reload.

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It's a 7+1 so I'm assuming it's a pump or an autoloader. You won't need to reload in a self-defense situation. A pump action keeps your finger on the trigger so you have a higher rate of fire than a bolt. Plus, it's definitely faster to reload than a revolver.

-I will never need to "sweep" a room.

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That is, until your wife is barricaded in the bathroom with 4 goblins in the bedroom trying to get in.

-If I had to grab one firearm in a SHTF scenario, it wouldn't be a shotgun. The ammunition is bulky and heavy.

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I carry a whole box of ammo when I'm bird hunting and it doesn't seem like much of a burden.

-Skeet shooting is more expensive and using paper targets just doesn't seem as fun as with a rifle.

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True that, but assuming you drink beer or soda, they are just as fun.

-I don't think racking the slide is as disabling to trespassers as some make it out to be.

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Trust me on this (from experience). It is.

So, I really want to like the shotgun (especially after reading Cormac McCarthy books), but it isn't taking. I recognize that shotguns are usually more inexpensive and in less danger of legislation than black rifles or handguns, but still. Why do you like the shotgun? Help convince me that it's a great firearm and that my new shotgun won't just be an investment to be sold off later down the road.

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Well, my shotgun has taken more than it's share of bag limits here in South Texas, and hanging with the guys when the doves are flying is pretty cool. It has, in one instance, chased away a couple of seedy goblins banging on and threatening to break down my door. Ammo is cheap...have you priced .223 or .556 lately? It handles varmints like skunks, possums, and squirrels quite nicely (and squirrels ARE varmints when you have over 200 pecan trees). And, come the holidays, it's really good for harvesting mistletoe from the mesquite trees. So there's that.

Alot of your points are preference based-

- I'd grab my revolver first because
-Even though it has an improved cylinder barrel, it's only effective out to 25 yards with buckshot.
-If I had to grab one firearm in a SHTF scenario, it wouldn't
-Skeet shooting is more expensive and using paper targets just doesn't seem as fun as with a rifle.

The others are common misunderstanding:
-If there was a threat outside on my property, I'd be more hesitant to use a shotgun because there are more stray projectiles to account for going off target into neighbors' houses.

Your launching OO Buckshot which looses energy very fast. It has poor BC so it falls away quickly

-Its 7 + 1 capacity is less than most non-bolt action rifles. It's also slower to reload.

Look into advanced shotgun tactics including speed reloading, you might change your mind-

-Even though it has an improved cylinder barrel, it's only effective out to 25 yards with buckshot. With rifled slugs the effective range could be pushed to approximately 100 yards for larger targets, but a rifle would offer better ballistics, range, accuracy, and value.

Do you own a house with a hall longer than 25 yards, how about a 100. I highly doubt your going to get into a gunfight where you have the need to reach out and touch someone with a slug and most buck will do its job within 50 yards under these circumstances.

-I will never need to "sweep" a room.
?? suprressing fire?

-It seems that police are moving away from carrying shotguns in their cruisers (perhaps because it's too heavy to routinely carry like a pistol and outperformed by a rifle when a dangerous situation arises that allows you to choose a better firearm)

Rifles have been selected by most PD's for its light armor penetrating ability.

-Except for fowl, it seems less efficient to hunt with.
Deer, turkeys, and every other animal i hunt disagree with you

Get one a shotgun, learn it, you will love it. My rifles are toys. Shotguns get all the real work.

ejnogarb said:

I don't know as much about firearms as many people on this forum, so please tell me how my points are inaccurate.

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I'll give it a whirl:

If someone broke in during the night, I'd grab my revolver first because I know it's 100% reliable, more maneuverable, and leaves me a free hand to open doors, hold a flashlight, or make a phone call.
Your shotgun - an 870 Police, going by your previous threads - should be just as reliable as a revolver, but you won't "know" that until you shoot it a bunch! It's surely not as compact as a handgun nor can it really be operated one-handed, but you knew that when you bought the gun. Adapt your tactics and the problem goes away.

-If there was a threat outside on my property, I'd be more hesitant to use a shotgun because there are more stray projectiles to account for going off target into neighbors' houses.
Again, you need to shoot the gun. The first thing you should do if intended for HD use (and what else would you buy an 870P for?) is buy a varied selection of buckshot in your choice of size - and slugs, if you intend to, or think you may someday be forced to, use them - and see what patterns best in your gun. Lee Lapin is a big fan of tight patterns, and I tend to agree for HD. Shotgun pellets also have a shorter range due to their shape and the lower muzzle velocity of a shotgun.

-Its 7 + 1 capacity is less than most non-bolt action rifles. It's also slower to reload.
It's also a 12-gauge. Eight rounds should be more than enough to get you through any scenario short of an active warzone, and with practice, reloading can be done quite quickly - I can dump a round from my Sidesaddle into my chamber in less than a second.

-Even though it has an improved cylinder barrel, it's only effective out to 25 yards with buckshot. With rifled slugs the effective range could be pushed to approximately 100 yards for larger targets, but a rifle would offer better ballistics, range, accuracy, and value.
Again, you knew this when you bought the gun - range is one limitation of a shotgun. Improved Cylinder isn't a constrictive choke at all; it's only one point above a completely open barrel. If you want more range with shot, you can buy longer barrels which accept screw-in chokes fairly inexpensively. For HD, slugs should provide you all the range you'd need under legitimate circumstances.

-I will never need to "sweep" a room.
How do you know? Anyway, shotguns still need to be aimed - you may as well apply this point to all of your HD guns!

-It seems that police are moving away from carrying shotguns in their cruisers (perhaps because it's too heavy to routinely carry like a pistol and outperformed by a rifle when a dangerous situation arises that allows you to choose a better firearm)
I can't really comment on this one, but the cops on the board can better give you an idea of why the trend is towards AR-pattern rifles these days. I don't think it has much to do with the effectiveness of a shotgun.

-Except for fowl, it seems less efficient to hunt with.
Plenty of people use shotguns with buck or slugs to take all manner of large game, with smaller shot to take all manner of small game, and it's popular in Alaska for bear defense.

-If I had to grab one firearm in a SHTF scenario, it wouldn't be a shotgun. The ammunition is bulky and heavy.
We don't really do SHTF here, so I'm going to leave this one alone.

-Skeet shooting is more expensive and using paper targets just doesn't seem as fun as with a rifle.
You can buy a clay thrower inexpensively and have fun dusting your own clays at your own range and your own pace. You can also use reactive targets just as you would with a rifle - melons, cheap soda cans, bottles of water, whatever.

-I don't think racking the slide is as disabling to trespassers as some make it out to be.
Relying on the sound of a shotgun being racked to "scare off" intruders is a load of dog crap. Beware internet-commando legends.

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The bottom line is that you're going to have to put some work and rounds into the gun to be able to get an accurate idea of its capabilities and limitations, and to have a chance to warm up to it. If you don't really want to put the effort into learning the ins and outs of a new platform, you'd probably just be better off selling the thing. If you are, your first stop should be the stickied Shotgunning 101 Library from Dave McCracken - tons of good information therein. Pay attention to threads and posts by Lee Lapin as well - Dave and Lee probably have more rounds through their guns, each, than any ten of us combined.

An 870 as reliable in real-world use as a quality revolver? Not on your life. Literally. It's easier than people acknowledge, to screw up an 870's feeding system. But it does throw a good deal more lead, and while it can jam hard under stress, it's easier to point accurately under stress, with a standard stock anyway.

Shooting melons is fun for a few minutes. Once. Unless I'm way too drunk to be handling a firearm.

Clay shooting, OTOH, is a lot of fun, and I have to force myself to get rifle practice, now. I never want to bother. Shooting clays is orders of magnitude more fun.

A shotgun is a great all-around hunting gun, and in a SHTF situation, it'll bring home more meat.

The comment about "sweeping" a room makes me think you have some misconceptions about shotgun spread. The spread of 00 buck is going to be pretty tight at residential distances. Think about it, the pellets don't spread to cover a man sized vital zone until 15-20 yards. If you live in a house with bedrooms that big, you can just hire a full-time bodyguard and forget about the shotgun.

A shotgun holds 8 shots of 12ga 00 buck, each of which holds 9 .33" projectiles. With one shot you have roughly the kinetic equivalent of a full cylinder of .38.

I personally find a shotgun faster to reload in practical situations than a revolver, as you can quickly reload 1 or 2 rounds as the opportunity presents itself, all while moving and shooting.

An 870 as reliable in real-world use as a quality revolver? Not on your life. Literally. It's easier than people acknowledge, to screw up an 870's feeding system. But it does throw a good deal more lead, and while it can jam hard under stress, it's easier to point accurately under stress, with a standard stock anyway.

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I will say that this is merely anecdotal, but would you consider a Ruger Blackhawk a quality revolver? Because I've had more problems with that than my 870.

Shooting melons is fun for a few minutes. Once. Unless I'm way too drunk to be handling a firearm.

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In which case, you'll have plenty of empty beer cans to blast away at.

Trust me on this part:

The load-cycling sound of a shotgun behind you will instantly change the
new-to-used weight-ratio of your Depends® in a real-life scenario.

Start bird hunting.

Well shoot, I guess I'm going to go sell my shotgun tomorrow.

Shotguns have their downsides. As ArmedBear points out, they're only reliable as you are. And they're heavy. Why does nobody ever mention this?

If you want to get excited about shotguns, find a local tactical shotgun match. It's a ton of fun.

[quote="daorhgih] The load-cycling sound of a shotgun behind you will instantly change the
new-to-used weight-ratio of your Depends® in a real-life scenario.[/quote]
By that same token, so will the sound of someone cocking the hammer on a revolver, working the lever on a lever gun, or racking the bolt/slide on any type of semi-auto.
That could just be my aversion to having bullets of any type enter my body, though.

ArmedBear said:

It's easier than people acknowledge, to screw up an 870's feeding system.

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Pray tell, how? I'm unaware of anything you can do to a fully-assembled 870 to screw up the feeding system that can't be fixed with a FlexTab or a little shaking.

I just induced a double-feed/FTE. Pulled back hard on the forend, canted the gun to the right, shook a little. Shell dropped right out. Back in business.

What else is there to go wrong on such a simple system?

zhyla said:

Why does nobody ever mention this?

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I assume because most people know that a shotgun isn't going to be in the same weight class as a lightweight carbine from the get-go. That said, I've been hunting around for a cheap LC barrel for my Express - or just a cheap Wingmaster to replace it with.

Heavy?
Maybe it's because I carried a Remington 1100 LT when I was 13, but I just don't see it that way. Carrying my trumpet in its case to the bus stop was harder at that time. I'm pretty sure my Stratocaster is heavier than my 870, and I wear that thing around my neck for 2 or 3 hours at a time on some gigs. Sometimes longer.

And I'm 110 lbs. So no, they're not heavy. Heavier than a handgun but not a burden.

Pray tell, how? I'm unaware of anything you can do to a fully-assembled 870 to screw up the feeding system that can't be fixed with a FlexTab or a little shaking.

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Hmm, didn't take me long to figure out how to jam my Wingmaster back in the day. Numbed cold thumb and a shell elevator that bites the finger that feeds it does the trick. There is ammo out there that stops one cold, too, 3" Winchester high speed steel shot Xperts. It's the ammo's fault, though, not the gun. Does it occasionally to my 500, too. When you're duck hunting, that sort of thing isn't fatal, fortunately, or I'd be dead right now. Be sure and TEST YOUR DEFENSE AMMO. My 500 will choke on about 2 rounds out of 25 of that 3" Xpert hi speed stuff. An acquaintance's 870 was more like every other round. Funny thing, 2 3/4", same stuff, no problem. Go figure.

Pray tell, how? I'm unaware of anything you can do to a fully-assembled 870 to screw up the feeding system that can't be fixed with a FlexTab or a little shaking.

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Per Yoda: you will be. You WILL be.

Take it duck hunting when you have to shoot a few quick, awkward shots and you're not concentrating on the shotgun. You'll likely be a lot less eager to trust it blindly after that. It can jam hard, and it's easy to do it. The problem with any range situation is that, bottom line, you know what's coming. Hunting, at least some kinds, cures that quickly, and can quickly make even a good shot feel like a bumbling idiot. It also can turn that gun that never fails into a frustrating jam-o-matic.

I'm not saying not to use an 870. I am saying, however, that if you've never had it jam hard, you may be trusting it a bit too much.

I recently got a great deal on a nice shotgun. However, I just can't get excited about shotguns.

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So? Why'd you buy it then? Someone hold a gun to your head and force you? Do you often do things and then complain to others because you did them and "just can't get excited?"

Jeeez.

r

MCgunner said:

Hmm, didn't take me long to figure out how to jam my Wingmaster back in the day.

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FlexTab.

ArmedBear said:

You'll likely be a lot less eager to trust it blindly after that. It can jam hard, and it's easy to do it.

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Not trying to say you can't jam an 870 - the "my guns are infallible" types are the worst - I'm just wondering how you can bind one up badly enough to be a real danger. Everything I can think of is basically a tap-rack-bang fix.

It seems to me that the OP is just looking for validation of his choice to NOT use a shotgun - if that is the case, why bother to post in the first place?

Shotguns are a great choice for HD, but not for everyone, especially to anyone not familiar with them or willing to learn how to best use them - OP stick with your pistol - you seem to be more comfortable with that - as to your point about HD outside the home - in most states that is called manslaughter, not SD

Spent round stuck in the chamber, one between the lifter and the bolt. You can't clear that quickly enough to use the gun to stop an attacker, or a duck.

There is exactly one manual repeater action that is truly close to jam-proof, and that's the CRF bolt action rifle. It's really the only action that is designed to account for short-stroking the action. Hence, the continued legendary status of the Mauser and its derivatives, long after they are obsolete for general military use.

Again, that doesn't mean that the 870 shouldn't be used for self-defense. However, it does mean that someone who relies on it needs to be aware of how to jam it (and how not to).

As a former owner of a Mossberg 500 Cruiser, A 18-20in barrel + pistol grip would solve any close quarters issues you may encounter. Likewise, you must have considerably more confidence in operating a bolt action at 3am than I do. Saftey off, pump, ready to rock.

And really, I have to question what you are doing pursuing somebody into the neighborhood streets to pop rounds off at them. Sure I can think of reasons why you may do so, but you have now opened yourself up to countersuit, even in cases that have castle laws. If you need the sort of range a shotgun won't give you, then you have moved squarely from defense to offense.

On that note, you might as well load up so low recoil slugs for the same job, since we're apparently such marksmen and want to control the round, as opposed to incidental damage from shot. Nods to over penetration, etc etc.

Sweeping a room? Thats like saying you won't be sweeping any rooms with your .45/357/38 etc etc... It's an irrelevant statement since one will do the same job as the other. you don't need to be expecting the A-Team to be breaking down your door to utilize a shotgun for invidual self defense, nor is it overkill as that statment implies.

None of this means you can't have a preference, but as somebody else mentioned, the issues you bring up are personal preference and thus make for factual quicksand.

...the OP is just looking for validation of his choice to NOT use a shotgun...

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I agree. I got here at post #4, and began to draft #5. I quickly realized that he didn't want a shotgun, so I went off to do other things.

ArmedBear said:

Spent round stuck in the chamber, one between the lifter and the bolt. You can't clear that quickly enough to use the gun to stop an attacker, or a duck.

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I actually induced exactly that while I was shooting up some of the commonly-maligned Winchester Universal. The first box and a half or so worth of stuck shells just required a stout pull on the forend, but after that it became a buttstroke-the-ground affair. Since I was already doing that, I figured I'd induce a double-feed as well to see what happened. It cleared just the same - the FlexTab, IMO, is essential for a serious-use gun.

I haven't tried inducing a double-feed on a stuck shell and clearing it with a normal stroke, nor do I have any idea if stuck shells are a more serious affair with 3.5" supermags or a gun covered with field muck - I'm sure they are, but neither of those (should) be applicable to a HD scenario. I'll try to get ahold of some more WU shells and try a few more times, but I'm not expecting any different result.

Anyway, unless there's something wrong with your chamber or you keep your HD gun full of mud, stuck shells shouldn't be a statistically relevant issue if you test your ammo.