When Shotguns Are Used Like Rifles 101...
- Thread starter Dave McCracken
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Dave McCracken
Moderator In Memoriam
Understood, Steve. As a toy, it's quite appealing. As a tool, it's egregious.
redneck2
Member
I think what some people miss is, there's slugs, then there's SLUGS
I took a moving coyote two years ago (deer season) at a measured 130 yards with an 870, 3" Remmie Copper Solids, and a 1.75 x 6 B&L scope. Dead center.
I've shot more deer than I can remember with Federal and Remington Foster style slugs, and some are accurate. When you get a good rifled barrel and sabots and a scope, you're in a whole different league.
I see very little difference between a .45-70 and a high quality slug from a rifled barrel, except the 12 gauge has a lot more whack.
I have a friend that has taken deer at 200 yards+ with a shotgun. Now, normally I would think this is "ego" talking, but he has 5 deer in the record book, and one is on video (the 200+). Granted, it was ideal conditions, but it shows what is capable. A deer at 200 yards is mighty small.
I took a moving coyote two years ago (deer season) at a measured 130 yards with an 870, 3" Remmie Copper Solids, and a 1.75 x 6 B&L scope. Dead center.
I've shot more deer than I can remember with Federal and Remington Foster style slugs, and some are accurate. When you get a good rifled barrel and sabots and a scope, you're in a whole different league.
I see very little difference between a .45-70 and a high quality slug from a rifled barrel, except the 12 gauge has a lot more whack.
I have a friend that has taken deer at 200 yards+ with a shotgun. Now, normally I would think this is "ego" talking, but he has 5 deer in the record book, and one is on video (the 200+). Granted, it was ideal conditions, but it shows what is capable. A deer at 200 yards is mighty small.
Zeke Menuar
Member
Some of us just get a major kick out of putting really BIG holes in things. Slugs or shot.
Western Field 550A. 18.5 " and 28 inch barrels
1906 Winchester M1897 12ga take-down
ZM
Western Field 550A. 18.5 " and 28 inch barrels
1906 Winchester M1897 12ga take-down
ZM
Grayrock
Member
Want to try out the 870 Wingmaster I inherited on deer this year. 00 buck will be ammo of choice. Gun is 12 ga, about 28" modified choke barrel. Only has a single bead. What kind of range and pattern can I expect? What is the proper aiming technique? Are those magnetic fiber optic rifle-like sights any good?
Tom Held
Member
Ugly but effective slug gun
Dave, a few years I was going to buy a hastings rifled slug barrel for one of my 870s. I was at Atlantic Guns in Silver Spring and found out I could buy a Marlin Bolt Action Slug gun with a full rifled barrel at the same price. This is an ugly basic meat on the table slug gun, no fancy checkering, no shiny finish, trigger pull at about 6 pounds and a piece of walnut that you could probably by at Lowe's for about 20 bucks.
But it shoots like hell. It likes Winchester Supremes in the 1700 fps version and will consistently group with 2 inches at 100 yards (off a rest). I have it sighted in at 3 inches high at 100 yards. At 150 it drops to 2 inches below center and the group spreads out to just under 4 inches.
I killed a buck and a doe with it this year. The buck was close in at 80 yards and the doe was 105. buck went about 20 yards and dropped, the doe about 30. This was from a tree stand and measured with a Bushnell range finder. Scoped with a Leopold 1.5-5.
I've got a 30:06 Winchester that won't group 2 inches at 100 yards. From a steady rest I would not hesitate to take a clean 200 yard shot. Tom
Dave, a few years I was going to buy a hastings rifled slug barrel for one of my 870s. I was at Atlantic Guns in Silver Spring and found out I could buy a Marlin Bolt Action Slug gun with a full rifled barrel at the same price. This is an ugly basic meat on the table slug gun, no fancy checkering, no shiny finish, trigger pull at about 6 pounds and a piece of walnut that you could probably by at Lowe's for about 20 bucks.
But it shoots like hell. It likes Winchester Supremes in the 1700 fps version and will consistently group with 2 inches at 100 yards (off a rest). I have it sighted in at 3 inches high at 100 yards. At 150 it drops to 2 inches below center and the group spreads out to just under 4 inches.
I killed a buck and a doe with it this year. The buck was close in at 80 yards and the doe was 105. buck went about 20 yards and dropped, the doe about 30. This was from a tree stand and measured with a Bushnell range finder. Scoped with a Leopold 1.5-5.
I've got a 30:06 Winchester that won't group 2 inches at 100 yards. From a steady rest I would not hesitate to take a clean 200 yard shot. Tom
Dave McCracken
Moderator In Memoriam
Grayrock, a better way to get some attention for your queries would have been to start a new thread. But since we're here....
First, most buck runs out of pattern well before running out of energy. Shoot some patterns with various 2 3/4" 00 loads and see what shoots the tightest.
Use that on shots where the max spread is less than 20" and you'll be OK.
As for aiming, put the bead on what you want to destroy and pull the trigger. The Green Worm sights may help, but see what you can do with the equipment as it is.
Tom, yours is not the first Marlin bolt shotgun I've heard praised like that. One Webfoot I know has a 4-12X Weaver on his and swears he can hit them WOD.
For those not from MD, Eastern Shore folks are oft called Webfeet.
And I've owned a number of rifles that wouldn't do 2" at 100 yards including my Model 94. Congrats....
First, most buck runs out of pattern well before running out of energy. Shoot some patterns with various 2 3/4" 00 loads and see what shoots the tightest.
Use that on shots where the max spread is less than 20" and you'll be OK.
As for aiming, put the bead on what you want to destroy and pull the trigger. The Green Worm sights may help, but see what you can do with the equipment as it is.
Tom, yours is not the first Marlin bolt shotgun I've heard praised like that. One Webfoot I know has a 4-12X Weaver on his and swears he can hit them WOD.
For those not from MD, Eastern Shore folks are oft called Webfeet.
And I've owned a number of rifles that wouldn't do 2" at 100 yards including my Model 94. Congrats....
Grayrock
Member
You know- damned if I do, damned if I don't. You start a new thread asking a question that might have been addressed before and folks chime in and say "That is what the SEARCH feature is for." So I use the SEARCH feature, and find I should have started a new thread
Anywho- The buckshot that I have available to me is Remington Express 12ga 00 buck and Winchester Supreme 12ga copperplated lead 00 buck. Any insight to the differences between these 2?
Anywho- The buckshot that I have available to me is Remington Express 12ga 00 buck and Winchester Supreme 12ga copperplated lead 00 buck. Any insight to the differences between these 2?
MCgunner
Member
Yet another sound write up. I do have one argument, very minor, however.
All quite true, no real dissension here, just that I really like .22s on squirrels. Yeah, the shotgun is better if you need the meat, I'll admit, and if you jump a rabbit, well, I'm fulla beans. ROFL
The shotgun is the very best choice for MEAT gathering, I suppose, unless as you point out, the range is excessive. I really don't know how even a rifle nut could argue with your logic here, but post it on the rifle forum and I bet you'll find all sorts of dissension, ROFL. I swear, one guy wanting a select fire M4 for home defense? sheesh!
BTW, Dave, those rifled choke tubes work? I've heard yay and nay on that one. Never tried one to find out for myself. Will it, maybe, just improve foster slug accuracy or will it actually work with sabots? I guess that's another thread, though.
All quite true, no real dissension here, just that I really like .22s on squirrels.
Yeah, the shotgun is better if you need the meat, I'll admit, and if you jump a rabbit, well, I'm fulla beans. ROFLThe shotgun is the very best choice for MEAT gathering, I suppose, unless as you point out, the range is excessive. I really don't know how even a rifle nut could argue with your logic here, but post it on the rifle forum and I bet you'll find all sorts of dissension, ROFL. I swear, one guy wanting a select fire M4 for home defense?
sheesh!BTW, Dave, those rifled choke tubes work? I've heard yay and nay on that one. Never tried one to find out for myself. Will it, maybe, just improve foster slug accuracy or will it actually work with sabots? I guess that's another thread, though.
scout26
Member
grayrock said:
Each shotgun is a being unto itself. What ammo works great in mine could be the biggest piece of caca in yours. The only way to find out what works best in yours is to take your gun and bunch of various types of ammo and use the pattern board to see what works best in your gun.
Dave McCracken
Moderator In Memoriam
Like Scout said, Greyrock, each shotgun is a law unto itself. Try some out and see what happens.
FWIW, I've some Supreme 9 and 12 pellets loads here. Good stuff, but not the best load in my "Serious" 870s.
MC, swapping the rifled tube for an IC in my meat 870 gains a bit over an inch at 50 yards, but not with the same slug. Best slug for the IC tube is the Winchester 1 oz HP slug, beating out the KO Brenekke that's best in the rifled tube by a half inch.
IMO, rifled choke tubes are worthwhile but not absolutely essential. Number One is also slug capable, and drops the KOs into less than 5" ETE at 100 yards.Its barrel is chokeless and 18".
HTH....
FWIW, I've some Supreme 9 and 12 pellets loads here. Good stuff, but not the best load in my "Serious" 870s.
MC, swapping the rifled tube for an IC in my meat 870 gains a bit over an inch at 50 yards, but not with the same slug. Best slug for the IC tube is the Winchester 1 oz HP slug, beating out the KO Brenekke that's best in the rifled tube by a half inch.
IMO, rifled choke tubes are worthwhile but not absolutely essential. Number One is also slug capable, and drops the KOs into less than 5" ETE at 100 yards.Its barrel is chokeless and 18".
HTH....
Dixie Slugs
Member
Very Interesting! Being to owner of Dixie Slugs, I had to chime in on this one!
I like the statement about a shotgun with a rifled barrels is really a big bore rifle. I have had that statement on our forum for some time and all are surpriised at the number of hits.
Now...In no way am I going to put down rifles, as I have/shoot/hunt with them.
However....even well beyond shotgun-only-states, there is a growing market for rifled barrels and full bore ammo. Even the cast bullet boys are picking up on reloading full bore ammo....after all it's just a bigger cast bullet.
Full bore shotgun ammo concept goes back the Brit's Paradox guns of Africa/India, where they knocked over some rather large animal. Most do not realize the smashing effect of .730"-730 gr (12 bore) and .625"-500 gr (20 bore) has on tough game!
A fast easy-to-use Remington 870, with a rifled Hasting barrel, and full bore aamo....makes an excellent brush gun on about anythig you might run up against!
So...don't let you mindset keep you from looking into this fast growing concept. The rifled shotgun barrel will never replace rifles for distance, but they sure have a place where the cover is thick and something is clicking it's tusk at you!
Regards, James
I like the statement about a shotgun with a rifled barrels is really a big bore rifle. I have had that statement on our forum for some time and all are surpriised at the number of hits.
Now...In no way am I going to put down rifles, as I have/shoot/hunt with them.
However....even well beyond shotgun-only-states, there is a growing market for rifled barrels and full bore ammo. Even the cast bullet boys are picking up on reloading full bore ammo....after all it's just a bigger cast bullet.
Full bore shotgun ammo concept goes back the Brit's Paradox guns of Africa/India, where they knocked over some rather large animal. Most do not realize the smashing effect of .730"-730 gr (12 bore) and .625"-500 gr (20 bore) has on tough game!
A fast easy-to-use Remington 870, with a rifled Hasting barrel, and full bore aamo....makes an excellent brush gun on about anythig you might run up against!
So...don't let you mindset keep you from looking into this fast growing concept. The rifled shotgun barrel will never replace rifles for distance, but they sure have a place where the cover is thick and something is clicking it's tusk at you!
Regards, James
Dave McCracken
Moderator In Memoriam
Jaames, I'm not surprised at the number of hit you cite, either on your BB or in the field.
I do not have a fully rifled "Shotgun" because my use environment doesn't require one. The longest shot in the last couple decades I recall was 65 yards and my equipment did well.
Others may greatly benefit, though, so thanks for the input.
A gunsmith friend decades ago rifled the choke of the left barrel on a 311 and shot Brenekkes from it. It worked on PA whitetails and Carolina hogs. The other barrel was loaded with 00. Not a Paradox but the same idea...
I do not have a fully rifled "Shotgun" because my use environment doesn't require one. The longest shot in the last couple decades I recall was 65 yards and my equipment did well.
Others may greatly benefit, though, so thanks for the input.
A gunsmith friend decades ago rifled the choke of the left barrel on a 311 and shot Brenekkes from it. It worked on PA whitetails and Carolina hogs. The other barrel was loaded with 00. Not a Paradox but the same idea...
Dixie Slugs
Member
Dave...I think the interest is broader than many realize....not only using full bore in the field, but also casting and reloading. Many of the one's shooting full bore come over from handgun hunting with cast bullets. Thay are also interested in casting and reloading.
We sent some production molds to Italy and they have copied our designs. We may be selling their molds for them in the States.
All in All...It's interesting to see this market develop nationwide.
Regards, James
We sent some production molds to Italy and they have copied our designs. We may be selling their molds for them in the States.
All in All...It's interesting to see this market develop nationwide.
Regards, James
MCgunner
Member
I see the shotgun as an all around, a do all (with limits). I don't hunt with mine other than birds, but it's fully capable and makes one of the best survival type guns around. Accuracy with Remington's slugger at 50 yards even out of my 20 gauge coach gun is plenty for killing game. I think of that gun sometimes as a combination gun. I was sitting there the other day on my stool waiting to see a dove fly over, late season doves ended last weekend, and heard some hogs in the brush fighting with each other. They hole up down there in these motts, they've infested the place. I pulled a AA out of the chamber and slipped in the slug, but they weren't coming my way, didn't see one. Like you said, you can't hunt dove with a rifle.
But, I really have no desire for a rifled barrel for my Mossberg. I can use my .308 here and really prefer to. If I want a monster pill at lowish velocity, I'll load up the Hawken.
But, I really have no desire for a rifled barrel for my Mossberg. I can use my .308 here and really prefer to. If I want a monster pill at lowish velocity, I'll load up the Hawken.
Dixie Slugs
Member
Interesting indeed! Please underatnd that I have many rifles to use where the hunting situation demands.
However, with the introduction of rifled shotgun barrels, first popular in shotgun-only-ststes, there has been a broad market opened up. While bolt action shotguns with rifled barrels are popular with sabot rounds, it's the everyday hunter addding a rifled barrel to his existing shotgun that buys the most full bore ammo. Reloading is after full bore ammo components also.
Then there is the much overlooked buckshot hunters....and there are lots out there. Give them something that kills better and they will buy all you can make!
So....the shotgun continues to be a very versatile setup for the everyday hunter. That sure does not take anything from rifles, it just adds to the overall market.
We need to watch and react to that market!
Regards, James
However, with the introduction of rifled shotgun barrels, first popular in shotgun-only-ststes, there has been a broad market opened up. While bolt action shotguns with rifled barrels are popular with sabot rounds, it's the everyday hunter addding a rifled barrel to his existing shotgun that buys the most full bore ammo. Reloading is after full bore ammo components also.
Then there is the much overlooked buckshot hunters....and there are lots out there. Give them something that kills better and they will buy all you can make!
So....the shotgun continues to be a very versatile setup for the everyday hunter. That sure does not take anything from rifles, it just adds to the overall market.
We need to watch and react to that market!
Regards, James
the naked prophet
Member
Hmmm... I'd like to get some peep or ghost ring sights on my Mossberg 500, but I can't seem to find any for less than $75 plus what I'd have to pay a gunsmith to solder the front sight onto my barrel. Would it be cheaper to just get a peep or ghost rear sight, and buy an 18" barrel with a front sight already on it?
What do you recommend for that?
What do you recommend for that?
MCgunner
Member
I've seen sights before in the catalogs that clamp to the vent rib. Not great, but hey, better than a bead at extended ranges.
If I wanted to set up with a slug barrel, I'd get a Mossberg barrel with that extension over the receiver for mounting a scope. I think that's a pretty nifty idea. The thing has holes in the top for a scope mount, but just how accurate is a scope going to be mounted on the receiver when the barrel just slides in and rattles around a tad? With the scope mounted to the barrel, you don't lose zero when you switch, either.
If I wanted to set up with a slug barrel, I'd get a Mossberg barrel with that extension over the receiver for mounting a scope. I think that's a pretty nifty idea. The thing has holes in the top for a scope mount, but just how accurate is a scope going to be mounted on the receiver when the barrel just slides in and rattles around a tad? With the scope mounted to the barrel, you don't lose zero when you switch, either.
Dixie Slugs
Member
There's a couple of things to consider.
(1) There is only one sight we suggest to go on a vent rib... and we have tried lots. It is the Tru-Glo Gobbler Dot. It have a set screwa in the sides of the sights that clamp on to the sides of the rib....strong. It is adjustable and have fiber front and rear.
(2) We have used accra-glass gel and powder steel many times on the barrel extensions....and stuck the barrels in the frames. Clean the inside of the frame and barrel extension first....then mount the scope of the reciever. To clean the action, pull the trigger group and hose it out with break cleaner. Later if the barrel has to be removed...a little heat will break it loose.
But, within normal ranges, the Tru-Glo sight works great.
Regards, James
(1) There is only one sight we suggest to go on a vent rib... and we have tried lots. It is the Tru-Glo Gobbler Dot. It have a set screwa in the sides of the sights that clamp on to the sides of the rib....strong. It is adjustable and have fiber front and rear.
(2) We have used accra-glass gel and powder steel many times on the barrel extensions....and stuck the barrels in the frames. Clean the inside of the frame and barrel extension first....then mount the scope of the reciever. To clean the action, pull the trigger group and hose it out with break cleaner. Later if the barrel has to be removed...a little heat will break it loose.
But, within normal ranges, the Tru-Glo sight works great.
Regards, James
Dave McCracken
Moderator In Memoriam
James, popularizing the .729 Nitro Express is a worthy cause. Good luck.
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