Shipping Long Guns Interstate

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Maj Dad

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I just got rebuffed by UPS (huge hassle, not enough time to relate without :cuss: ) and want to know if it is possible to send a long gun via USPS Priority Mail/whatever. The FedEx rate I calculated online was $90 - I'm sure UPS would be similar. I am a C&R shipping to 07 FFL (mfr/importer)...
Help!
:banghead:
 
USPS

That's how I do it. Get Insurance and confirmation and still way cheaper than FED-EX. I think you'll need a copy of the FFL's license.
 
The UPS stores generally don't ship firearms. And, I have found that UPS employees don't really know what the rules are and so it is easier for them to just say they can't.

UPS where I live has called me before to find out what is legal, most recently to find out if someone can ship a gun to themselves in another state. The answer to that question was "Yes".

It is probably best to print off a copy of the UPS firearms shipping policy from their website and take that with you when you go to ship your firearm. MOST UPS employees will have a hard time arguing with that.
 
Deadin, that was dead-on - thanks (and thanks to all of you). I'll be off to the P.O. tomorrow with copies of every license I can think off... :rolleyes:
Cheers, gents!
George
 
I'm an 03 as well. If you want to send via UPS, you have to go to a UPS Customer Service center. USPS is the better route. I've shipped a C&R Rifle via UPS Ground to another FFL in NV and it got lost in transit for like two weeks. I ended up having to file reports with the ATF and whatnot.... miracle of miracles a few days after the ATF was notified UPS found it and sent it on its way.
 
Post office, actually, any post office can take the gun (unloaded) and
they charge MUCH less, and have a reputation of it arriving, and being intact, but do take care to package it carefully.
 
Maj Dad Deadin: ...I'll be off to the P.O. tomorrow with copies of every license I can think off...
WHY?:scrutiny:
There is no requirement in any USPS regulation to provide anyone with a copy of any license.

1. Pack rifle or shotgun in box
2. Weigh and measure
3. Pay and print USPS postage and shipping label on usps.com
4. Drop off package at post office
5. Go back home

It is easy unless you make it difficult on yourself.
 
Only the postmaster is informed if asked. The regular agent is not to inspect and you do not have to in form them.( my understanding)
 
Every package I have mailed (guns and non-guns) the "does the package contain anything hazardous, illegal or restricted?" question is always asked.
So, if it contains a firearm, you must reveal it.
(They are considered "restricted")
Also, DMM601.1.7 requires the mailer to obey all regulations and laws concerning the shipment. One of those laws is that firearms being mailed interstate go to a licensee. So whether they ask or not, you, the mailer can get cross-ways with two different government agencies. (USPS & BATFE)

DMM601.12.3 also says that they can require you to open the package to prove that the firearm isn't loaded or restricted by DMM601 12.1.1e.

So, yes, there is no actual rule that says that you must provide a copy of the addressee's FFL, but why wouldn't you if you're following the regulations?
I find it" greases the skids" and makes the transaction go much easier.
 
deadin ....So, if it contains a firearm, you must reveal it. (They are considered "restricted")
No, you don't. Only dealers and manufacturers must notify the USPS and only when shipping a firearm other than a rifle or shotgun. And the USPS has a Form 1508 for us to use when doing so.

If you read DMM 601 12.3 you will see that rifles and shotguns ARE mailable by anyone, anytime, anywhere as long as you follow the GCA '68- they are not restricted by any USPS regulation.



deadin: ....So, yes, there is no actual rule that says that you must provide a copy of the addressee's FFL, but why wouldn't you if you're following the regulations?
This statement makes no sense.
I'm a licensed dealer. No one gets a copy of my license unless it is required. And a copy of my FFL is NEVER required to ship a firearm by any USPS, FedEx or UPS rule, regulation or policy.
 
How come it was $90 to ship a rifle? They can go ground and even with a lot of insurance we have never paid more then $25 tops for a $3000 item being shipped Fedex Ground.
 
forking over unnecessary info voluntarily

Uh, where did I say to fork it over voluntarily??
I merely said that it could help. Meaning if you get a recalcitrant postal clerk it might make the difference of going home with your package or having it mailed. I suppose you can stand there and argue regulations with the clerk or local Postmaster, but is it really worth the time for us non-dealers that only mail an occasional gun?
I know the first time I mailed from my local PO, the clerk referred me to the Postmaster, who wasn't there at the time. When I finally ran her down, showed her where to find the regulations, etc., she still had to check with "higher authority". I now have them all trained and there are no further problems.
 
This is the official, posted-on-the-internet by the ATF boys final word on what you can and cannot do when it comes to mailing firearms at the United States Post Office.
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/unlicensed-persons.html#shipping-firearms-usps

Q: May a nonlicensee ship a firearm through the U.S. Postal Service?
A nonlicensee may not transfer a firearm to a non-licensed resident of another State. A nonlicensee may mail a shotgun or rifle to a resident of his or her own State or to a licensee in any State. The Postal Service recommends that long guns be sent by registered mail and that no marking of any kind which would indicate the nature of the contents be placed on the outside of any parcel containing firearms. Handguns are not mailable. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun.
[18 U.S.C. 1715, 922(a)(3), 922(a)(5) and 922 (a)(2)(A)]

Q: May a nonlicensee ship firearms interstate for his or her use in hunting or other lawful activity?
Yes. A person may ship a firearm to himself or herself in care of another person in the State where he or she intends to hunt or engage in any other lawful activity. The package should be addressed to the owner. Persons other than the owner should not open the package and take possession of the firearm.

Now then, on the issue of whether you have to tell the US Post Office counter employee, “Hey Steve! I got me a Thirty-Thirty lever-action assault weapon with a laser-beam aimer and a banana-clip in this here box, and you better not give me no lip about it!,” please read:
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00000922----000-.html

(e) It shall be unlawful for any person knowingly to deliver or cause to be delivered to any common or contract carrier for transportation or shipment in interstate or foreign commerce, to persons other than licensed importers, licensed manufacturers, licensed dealers, or licensed collectors, any package or other container in which there is any firearm or ammunition without written notice to the carrier that such firearm or ammunition is being transported or shipped; except that any passenger who owns or legally possesses a firearm or ammunition being transported aboard any common or contract carrier for movement with the passenger in interstate or foreign commerce may deliver said firearm or ammunition into the custody of the pilot, captain, conductor or operator of such common or contract carrier for the duration of the trip without violating any of the provisions of this chapter. No common or contract carrier shall require or cause any label, tag, or other written notice to be placed on the outside of any package, luggage, or other container that such package, luggage, or other container contains a firearm.

Note the specification “common or contract carrier.”
FedEx is a “common or contract carrier.”
UPS is a “common or contract carrier.”
Billy Bob’s Toss ‘em and Loss ‘em Package Manglers is a “common or contract carrier.”
You have to give each of them written notice that you are shipping a gun.
Their form, that they require you to fill out at their counter, has a specific place on it where you have to declare the contents of your package.
I have many-a-time listed “rifle” as the contents when shipping at UPS.
Only reason why I ever use UPS though, is when I’m shipping ammo (in a separate box) on the same shipping errand.
I can give you the 411 on how to ship ammo if you ever feel like doing that. It’s a piece of cake.

It is a felony to fail to tell FedEx, UPS, or Billy Bob that you are shipping a gun.

Guns shipped through UPS must be shipped from a Customer Center (generally referred to as a "hub").
See http://www.ups.com/content/us/en/locations/custcenters/

UPS specifically prohibits their outlet centers "UPS Store," etc. from receiving guns or ammunition from customers.
Don't even think about it.

The United States Post Office is NOT a “common or contract carrier.”
The USPS is a federal government agency, and as such, is excluded from the “common or contract carrier”requirement to notify as to the contents of the box being a firearm.
You do NOT have to make any declaration to the counter clerk as to the nature of the item you are shipping.

Finally, this gets us to the question as to whether a firearm is somehow a “hazardous material,” that would be unmailable under the regs governing mailing explosives, medical waste, or suspicious white powder. You have already read the regs on what things are not mailable. Guns are not mentioned. Moreover, why in the world would the ATF be posting a FAQ http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/ that says you CAN mail guns, if in fact their sister federal agency, the Post Office, was of the official position that guns cannot be mailed?!!!

Finally, what if the clerk asks you, “Hey man, what’s in the box?”
Do you have to answer?
Do you have to answer truthfully?
Do you have to tell the “whole” truth (i.e. “Its machine parts…” or “It’s a high-speed horizontal magazine dispenser”)
I don’t know the answer to this, as it may pertain to the exact letter of the law.
Frankly, I don’t think the letter of the law addresses these questions.

I’ll wager the Postmaster has the authority to inspect the contents of any package for unmailable items.
How much you can stand your ground, or play games, when put to a specific question as to contents is something somebody should look into.
I would err on the side of telling the whole truth.

I have heard third-hand stories of postal clerks requiring persons to prove that the gun is unloaded.
It never has happened to me, or to anybody whom I know personally.
The poor schmucks it did happen to were probably the dopes who announced, unsolicited, the contents of the box.
KYBMS!!!

Bottom line is, the post office clerk NEVER asks what is the contents!
Just make sure the package is wrapped in accordance with postal regs.
Technically, postal regs say you have to use only PAPER tape on the exterior of the box.
I’ve never seen them enforce this. I always use cellophane tape – and lots of it.
The last thing I want is an AK-47 clattering around in the back of the mailman’s Jeep because I was to cheap to use the right box, or enough tape.
If you have done a completely lousy or inadequate job of sealing the box, the postal clerk will say something to you.
You won’t believe some of the train-wrecks of box wrapping I have seen at the Post Office.
Put the gun in a good-quality, plain cardboard box, with a good tape-job, and a permanently-affixed, printed-and-legible address label, and there is zero chance that you will have any sort of confrontation, with the postal clerk.
Wear a tie, stand up straight, and act like you know what you are doing… and KYBMS.

If you do this, the contents of the box will not be questioned, or that you will not have to cite any of the aforesaid laws and regulations.
 
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deadin
Quote:
forking over unnecessary info voluntarily
Uh, where did I say to fork it over voluntarily??
I merely said that it could help. Meaning if you get a recalcitrant postal clerk it might make the difference of going home with your package or having it mailed. I suppose you can stand there and argue regulations with the clerk or local Postmaster, but is it really worth the time for us non-dealers that only mail an occasional gun?
I know the first time I mailed from my local PO, the clerk referred me to the Postmaster, who wasn't there at the time. When I finally ran her down, showed her where to find the regulations, etc., she still had to check with "higher authority". I now have them all trained and there are no further problems.

It sure as heck doesn't help. While YOU may feel it helped you, you actually make it more difficult on anyone who follows you.

Rule #1 Don't invite the postal clerk to make a decision.
Rule #2 Don't tell them you are shipping a rifle or shotgun.
Rule #3 Know your postal regulations.
 
Every package I have mailed (guns and non-guns) the "does the package contain anything hazardous, illegal or restricted?" question is always asked.
So, if it contains a firearm, you must reveal it.

This is wrong information.
The clerk asks whether the package contains items that are "fragile, hazardous, or perishable."

No postal regulation requires the non-FFL customer to inform the clerk that the package contains a firearm.

I know FFL-holders are allowed to ship handguns in the mail.
(which is outside the scope of the present discussion)
FFL-holders may have to disclose the presence of a handgun - somebody else can look that up.
 
It is a felony to fail to tell FedEx, UPS, or Billy Bob that you are shipping a gun.
Wrong.

You only have to declare if you ARE NOT shipping to a licensee, and only then when you are dealing with a common carrier. You do not have to declare bupkus at the post office.
18 USC 922 said:
(e) It shall be unlawful for any person knowingly to deliver or cause to be delivered to any common or contract carrier for transportation or shipment in interstate or foreign commerce, to persons other than licensed importers, licensed manufacturers, licensed dealers, or licensed collectors, any package or other container in which there is any firearm or ammunition without written notice to the carrier that such firearm or ammunition is being transported or shipped. - The law

Some of you guys are your own worst enemies when it comes to your rights.
 
Some of you guys are your own worst enemies when it comes to your rights.

AMEN! There are enough regulations and statutes already out there, we don't need to be adding any of own, "Well, I heard" or "Well, I think..."
 
Uh, where did I say to fork it over voluntarily??

So, yes, there is no actual rule that says that you must provide a copy of the addressee's FFL, but why wouldn't you if you're following the regulations?

Sounds close enough to me.

Meaning if you get a recalcitrant postal clerk it might make the difference of going home with your package or having it mailed. I suppose you can stand there and argue regulations with the clerk or local Postmaster, but is it really worth the time for us non-dealers that only mail an occasional gun?

First of all, if the clerk wants to argue with me, that's fine - but in no way will I go home without having my package mailed. That's just silly.

And yes, it is worth arguing regulations with the clerk or Postmaster, because the regulations are on our side. The sooner they understand that, the sooner they can do their job and I can get out of their hair.

The bottom line is that the rules are what they are. If the people working for the post office don't know enough to follow their own guidelines, that's not my problem. I won't contribute to their ignorance by playing along and hoping they don't screw something up.
 
It is Tuesday, so another thread about shipping firearms......

W.E.G. I'm not picking on you.......but you posted factually incorrect information from the ATF website. Information they readily admit is in error, but are too lazy to correct.

The ATF letter admitting their error is posted here on THR about every other week.

W.E.G. This is the official, posted-on-the-internet by the ATF boys final word on what you can and cannot do when it comes to mailing firearms at the United States Post Office.
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/unli...-firearms-usps
While ATF includes this information as a courtesy.....the USPS is the final word on mailing.
Q: May a nonlicensee ship a firearm through the U.S. Postal Service?
A nonlicensee may not transfer a firearm to a non-licensed resident of another State. A nonlicensee may mail a shotgun or rifle to a resident of his or her own State or to a licensee in any State. The Postal Service recommends that long guns be sent by registered mail and that no marking of any kind which would indicate the nature of the contents be placed on the outside of any parcel containing firearms. Handguns are not mailable. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun.
[18 U.S.C. 1715, 922(a)(3), 922(a)(5) and 922 (a)(2)(A)]
While "nonlicensees" cannot mail a handgun, they most certainly ARE MAILABLE by dealers, manufacturers and in certain circumstances LEO.


Q: May a nonlicensee ship firearms interstate for his or her use in hunting or other lawful activity?
Yes. A person may ship a firearm to himself or herself in care of another person in the State where he or she intends to hunt or engage in any other lawful activity. The package should be addressed to the owner. Persons other than the owner should not open the package and take possession of the firearm.
Now then, on the issue of whether you have to tell the US Post Office counter employee, “Hey Steve! I got me a Thirty-Thirty lever-action assault weapon with a laser-beam aimer and a banana-clip in this here box, and you better not give me no lip about it!,” please read:
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/ht...2----000-.html

(e) It shall be unlawful for any person knowingly to deliver or cause to be delivered to any common or contract carrier for transportation or shipment in interstate or foreign commerce, to persons other than licensed importers, licensed manufacturers, licensed dealers, or licensed collectors, any package or other container in which there is any firearm or ammunition without written notice to the carrier that such firearm or ammunition is being transported or shipped; except that any passenger who owns or legally possesses a firearm or ammunition being transported aboard any common or contract carrier for movement with the passenger in interstate or foreign commerce may deliver said firearm or ammunition into the custody of the pilot, captain, conductor or operator of such common or contract carrier for the duration of the trip without violating any of the provisions of this chapter. No common or contract carrier shall require or cause any label, tag, or other written notice to be placed on the outside of any package, luggage, or other container that such package, luggage, or other container contains a firearm.
Note the specification “common or contract carrier.”...You have to give each of them written notice that you are shipping a gun.

No, you don't. see the text bolded above? The only time you must give notice that you are shipping a firearm is when you are shipping INTERSTATE to someone other than a licensee. Shipping a firearm INTERSTATE to someone other than a licensee is a violation of Federal law so if you give notice you are actually admitting (in writing) to committing a felony. (there are exceptions to shipping only to an FFL...like shipping a gun addressed to yourself)

Their form, that they require you to fill out at their counter, has a specific place on it where you have to declare the contents of your package.
This is a COMPANY policy, not Federal requirement. Note that labels you print online do not ask what is in the box.

It is a felony to fail to tell FedEx, UPS, or Billy Bob that you are shipping a gun.
Nope. Read the actual Federal law cited in your ATF FAQ answers. It contradicts the ATF answer. Both UPS and FedEx COMPANY policies or tariffs require the shipper to tell them when shipping a firearm and to use the specified level of service. Fail to adhere to their published tariffs and you will get nothing on any insurance claim if your firearm is lost, damaged or stolen. It is absolutely NOT a Federal crime.
 
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Must be some fancy custom rifle to cost over $90 via Fedex - I just shipped an Over/under half way across the country via Fedex three day - with insurance it cost about $18...... and they didn't ask what was inside. They were $10 cheaper than what the USPS online price calculator said it was going to be via the USPS
 
One other thing about the UPS/Fedex guys is that when shipping something ong and thin, they seem better able to handle it at the local delivery end. Our mail arrives in a small mail truck and often times he has to man-handle the long guns out from all the other stuff in that little truck.... at least with Fedex/UPS its sitting upright in a truck with more room around it.

Because of that, though none have been badly damaged, i have noted a lot more poke through and box wear on the mail sorted long guns.
 
OK..OK, convincing arguments..:D

Couple further questions then...
If you are insuring the package (and I would assume you would), do you then have to declare what is in it or is just listing the value sufficient?
(in other words, do you leave the "contents" box blank or fib about what's in the package, and how would this affect a possible claim?)

Is the statement from 12.3 concerning rifles and shotguns:
The mailer may be required by the USPS to establish, by opening the parcel or by written certification, that the gun is unloaded and not precluded by 12.1.1e.
just so much wasted ink? (If you don't declare it, how would they know?)

It looks like the bottom line is all of the responsibility falls on the mailer to know the rules/laws. I wonder just how many casual mailers actually know all this without asking questions. (Or should one pose their questions like, "I've got something in this box that is none of your business, but I want to know what the rules are concerning it so I won't break any laws" ;))

Or should we just believe everything we read on the Internet?
 
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