Cheaper obscure branded pistols

There's quite a spectrum of quality in the OP's list. I'm not familiar with FM, so I'll skip it.

The Tangfolio Witness is a pretty good gun, a copy of a CZ design.
Astra and Star are good solid guns. I'll rate an Astra S&W copy over a Taurus and FAR over a Rossi.
I've had a couple of LLamas and was not impressed.

I guess it's established then. No facts.

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A topic of this kind is nothing but opinion. There are no facts involved. For his money none of the guns mentioned are worth owning. YMMV

What "facts" is he supposed to bring to the discussion to prove he does not value any of these guns?

I think it's unfair to lump these all into a group.

WWII-era Astra pistols had exceptionally beautiful bluing, very tight tolerances, and can shoot very well. These rank right up there with the best examples of Brownings.

I've shot the later model Astra Terminator (Snub .44 Magnum) and it was made just as well, with perfect fit and finish.

If you say they aren't even worth considering, that is pretty elitist and total BS.
Not everyone has $1000 bucks for a colt 1911 or S&W. But to say that for $350 bucks a firestar 45 isn't even worth considering is pretty damn short sighted. They are a fantastically reliable weapon and built like a tank. Is it heavy? Yes. Is it the best looking thing out there? Maybe not. Will it work when you need it to? Well my 9mm, my 45 ACP and my .40 have never failed to fire.

There are lots of folks who have had nightmare experiences with even the big names. EVERY company has produced some lemons but to say an entire brand is not even worth considering is just flat out silly.

If you say they aren't even worth considering, that is pretty elitist and total BS.
Not everyone has $1000 bucks for a colt 1911 or S&W. But to say that for $350 bucks a firestar 45 isn't even worth considering is pretty damn short sighted. They are a fantastically reliable weapon and built like a tank. Is it heavy? Yes. Is it the best looking thing out there? Maybe not. Will it work when you need it to? Well my 9mm, my 45 ACP and my .40 have never failed to fire.

There are lots of folks who have had nightmare experiences with even the big names. EVERY company has produced some lemons but to say an entire brand is not even worth considering is just flat out silly.

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That is your opinion which you are entitled to. Is he not entitled to his perspective? What make his BS and yours worth noting? I mean seriously they are just subjective opinions.

A topic of this kind is nothing but opinion. There are no facts involved

What "facts" is he supposed to bring to the discussion to prove he does not value any of these guns?

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give that man a cigar! well said, my friend


incidentally, i have experience with all on the list, and the only one i would even consider buying are the Stars. however, several things must be considered. since they are out of production, spare parts are going to be hard to find. also, spanish pistols are known for "soft" steel, which mean their durability isn't top of the line (although the Stars seem to be relatively durable). the worst one i've fired was definitely the llama...

HiPoint Firearms. Yes, I said it.

$150 or less. They're not pretty, they've been known to be picky eaters and are less than concealable in nature, but once you find the quirks (if any) they're generally regarded as very reliable. A generous life time warranty renders most of the quirks irrelevant anyway. Oh, made in the USA.

And now to sit back and watch it all burn

Not the value they used to be. I see them selling for $400 which IMHO is a crime. These are great guns in the sub $300 range.

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I don't see $400 as a bad buy, just not as good a buy as when the wholesalers get a load in and sell them in the $299 range. Compare these to the various plastic guns in the $400 range and it doesn't look so bad. I'd sooner pay $400 for one of these than $400 for a SR9.

J&G regularly carries FM 90's for $299. They're out right now, but they'll get more.

I don't see $400 as a bad buy, just not as good a buy as when the wholesalers get a load in and sell them in the $299 range. Compare these to the various plastic guns in the $400 range and it doesn't look so bad. I'd sooner pay $400 for one of these than $400 for a SR9.

J&G regularly carries FM 90's for $299. They're out right now, but they'll get more.

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The FMs that J&G gets are not new. They are used secondary import guns. IIRC. When compared to guns like the CZ82 which can be had for almost $100 less they are not a good value IMHO. YMMV

NIB at $300 was a decent value especially when they came with better finishes. The later pistols I saw were horribly finished in black spray paint. Which almost mandated refinishing. I know people used to use them for custom base guns and did not care about the original finish because they planned on refinishing them once the custom work was done.

When you are paying $400 for a LNIB used clone vs other FN and BHPs in that price range does not make much sense to me or represent a lot of value.

There's quite a spectrum of quality in the OP's list. I'm not familiar with FM, so I'll skip it.

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The early FM's were made under contract to FN and are comparable in quality. The later ones (after late 80's?) are no longer under contract and have some manufacturing shortcuts - the front of the slide is no longer beveled, for example - but they're still good guns and excellent shooters.

The FMs that J&G gets are not new. They are used secondary import guns. IIRC. When compared to guns like the CZ82 which can be had for almost $100 less they are not a good value IMHO.

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I have a CZ 82 and an FM Hi Power. I like them both, but the FM is a better all around gun.

I had one Tanfoglio .45 that was just great, no problems whatsoever. I had one Llama
.22 that was spectacular and I recently purchased another Llama in 9mm that, if I could get it to work, I wold shoot myself for buying it.

No experience with the others you list but I have heard good things about the FM and Star. If you're not stuck on 9mm I would consider a Rock Island Armory for another lower cost option, (although I think they may be had in 9mm also).

I have a CZ 82 and an FM Hi Power. I like them both, but the FM is a better all around gun.

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No way its 50% better. CZ82s go for under $200 and the FM if you can find one at J&G go for $300. IMHO

$100 better in the under $300 market has to be head a shoulders better for me to justify the price.

They are also two different animals. Each has to be compared to other similar guns. I personally evaluate the CZ82 against other DA/SA guns. I do not compare its trigger for example to a 1911 because they are not and never will be a 1911.

The CZ82's DA trigger is sweet and rivals or beats even many of Sigs offerings. Its size, shootablity and durability are all huge for me. They are a tank and shoot a very nice marakov round. They are much better than say a PPK, more expensiveby $300 or Bersa thunder, more expensive by $100, in 380 auto.

The FM is a decent copy of the BHP. Compared to FN HI powers it is OK. Internally it is much rougher and lacks the refinnment found in the browning and FN models. Not a bad third world copy just not a great one. When I compare it to a CZ75 I prefer the 75. They are right in same price point used and you can get a CZ75 NIB for under $450.

So when comparing the FM Hi power and the CZ82 if you prefer SA guns then your bias might lead you to that conclusion. I prefer SA guns but think there are few guns out there that constitute the value that the CZ82 brings to the table. YMMV

The FM has a better finish than the CZ. The FM has a baked on epoxy military finish, while the CZ has some cheap paint that flakes. The CZ is a blowback 9mm Mak, while the FM is a locked breech 9x19.

I think they're both good buys at current prices, but the FM is a better all around gun.

Compare below - both are surplus guns, but you can see the paint flaking off the CZ above the trigger.

Compare below - both are surplus guns, but you can see the paint flaking off the CZ above the trigger.

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True the finish is nothing to write home about on the CZ. What vintage is your FM. Later FM guns I saw had a similar paint on finish to the CZ82.

As I stated earlier in the thread the older the FM is the better the fit and especially the finish is.

I like them both but if I were in the market for a sub $400 surplus BHP I would hand pick an Israeli import. And you already know who I feel about those.

No, it's not a matter of opinion. Some things are true, and some are not. You can tell me your opinion of the sky is that its orange. You'd be wrong. You can say ALL inexpensive pistols are garbage, you'd also be wrong. You can say a pistol is not aesthetically pleasing to you.. THAT is an opinion and I would be wrong to say otherwise. The many guns I have from Star, Llama, Astra, Tanfoglio, FEG and a few others are all reliable, finished well and shoot accurately. Those are not opinions, those are facts based on shooting, reloading for, and working on these pistols.

This is an FM 90 from J&G, purchased a couple months ago. Police trade in, supposedly.

At $400, it wouldn't be a great buy compared to a Belgian Hi Power, just because of re-sale value alone.

However, if you compared it to any of the NIB plastic guns going in the $400 range, it would still be a good buy. If I needed a $400 gun right now and could choose between an FM, a Glock, A Ruger, a Sigma, etc, I'd snap up the FM every time.

The many guns I have from Star, Llama, Astra, FEG and a few others are all reliable, finished well and shoot accurately. Those are not opinions, those are facts based on shooting, reloading for, and working on these pistols.

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They are 100% subjective opinions based on your 100% subjective data. How many data points do you have? Lets take the Star. How many do you own? How many were produced? If were are looking at facts you can state that in your experience your star is reliable, finished well and shoot accurately. The real question is that enough to claim it as a universal truth?

I think not unless you own thousands of Star pistols.

You are expressing the definition of an opinion.

1.a belief or judgment that rests on grounds insufficient to produce complete certainty.
2.a personal view, attitude, or appraisal.

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However, if you compared it to any of the NIB plastic guns going in the $400 range, it would still be a good buy. If I needed a $400 gun right now and could choose between an FM, a Glock, A Ruger, a Sigma, etc, I'd snap up the FM every time.

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This might be true for you. I personally would take a Glock 19(Used $400), Sig P6 (Used $300) or a FNP9 ($400 NIB) over the FM but if I had to have the FM in my hand I would not feel unprotected.

Of the brands that are listed, I have had very positive experiences with Astra, FM, and Star. I think Astras and Stars in particular are very well made guns, and I wouldn't hesitate to pick one up if the price were right and the gun checked out okay. The FMs that I have tried were good servicable guns, not as nicely finished as a comparable Browning Hi-Power, but again, a decent enough gun at a certain price point. I would also include the FEG version of the Hi-Power as being similar in quality to the FM made guns.

rellascout said:

They are 100% subjective opinions based on your 100% subjective data. How many data points do you have? Lets take the Star. How many do you own? How many were produced? If were are looking at facts you can state that in your experience your star is reliable, finished well and shoot accurately. The real question is that enough to claim it as a universal truth?

I think not unless you own thousands of Star pistols.

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Your argument about multiple data points is valid. Would mass adoption by the military and police forces of countries qualify?

FM Hi-Powers: adopted by the Argentine military and police, as well as some other South American countries, during the 1960s-1980s.
Star M28/M30: adopted by the Spanish military and police in the 1980s.
Astra 400/600: adopted by the Spanish military and police in the 1920s-1940s and by German police in the 1940s-1950s.

Another reflection of quality is durability. The Astra 400 and 600 models are the only mass-production guns that were designed to withstand the punishment of 9mm and more powerful ammo in a straight blowback pistol.

Your argument about multiple data points is valid. Would mass adoption by the military and police forces of countries qualify?

FM Hi-Powers: adopted by the Argentine military and police, as well as some other South American countries, during the 1960s-1980s.
Star M28/M30: adopted by the Spanish military and police in the 1980s.
Astra 400/600: adopted by the Spanish military and police in the 1920s-1940s and by German police in the 1940s-1950s.

Another reflection of quality is durability. The Astra 400 and 600 models are the only mass-production guns that were designed to withstand the punishment of 9mm and more powerful ammo in a straight blowback pistol.

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I like where you are coming from. This is data which one can use to backup the opinion that these are good guns and are worth consideration. I guess my point is that it is still 100% an opinion if these guns are brands worth considering. You might say yes based on the data you just posted. Others would not take it into consideration. Again this is why it is a subjective opinion.

rellascout said:

I guess my point is that it is still 100% an opinion if these guns are brands worth considering.

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I like your critical thinking. The fact that a brand of gun may have seen widespread military or police use only means that the brand should not necessarily be dismissed on the basis of internet chatter about inadequate quality. As to whether the brand should otherwise be considered ... that is opinion.

jeez, why don't you give facts to back up your opinion? are you saying yours is more valid than others? plz

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Some opinions are certainly more valid than others. You've not given us enough info to know whether your opinion is worth a hoot, or not.

I've owned Tanfoglios. Decent guns, and certainly as reliable and durable as most other major "brand name" guns. The earliest Tanfoglio copies of the CZ were true clones; they simplified the design over time and it may actually be a better design, now. Tanfoglio is the supplier of the guns sold under the Witness brand, many of the guns sold by Magnum Research (as Baby Eagles), for the frames of the Jericho and David weapons from Israel, and others. They also make a pretty good 1911 clone.

Stars have been pretty good guns, but the problem now, is that parts are starting to be a little scarce here in the US. They can still be had in Europe, and if you've got contacts, you're good to go. Extractors for the .40 models are like hen's teeth, but that's the only part I've heard of being in short supply. I've had a number of Stars, from a Model B, to several 9mm and .40, including several Firestar compact 9mms. Good guns, with triggers that can be easily tuned to be outstanding.

I've had just one Llama, a 9mm 1911. It was a fine gun. Heavy, accurate, and well made. It was imported by Stoeger in the early '80s, and quality was high. Some of the Llama produced in the late 90's weren't well regarded, as they seemed to have a lot of problems. But the Llama became a lot like High Point: vilified by people who never owned them, because it was a fun thing to do. I sold mine not too long ago, because it had become a safe queen. I had other guns I was enthused about.

FMs, as other have noted, were originally licensed copies of the Browning Hi-Power, and while never as pretty (finish was NOT a focus for FM), the guns were and are quite good. I've never had one, but know several folks who had and do have them. No complaints from them.

I have no direct experience with Astras, but know shooters who have had them and liked them. And they never had a reputation for being crap. Some of them seem to be close copies of SIG designs, with some innovations that make them quite handy. A lot of gun for the money. Parts may eventually be a problem -- doesn't seem to be, yet.

Another gun not mentioned is the DaeWoo from South Korea. A good, solid gun. I've had several. DaeWoo also makes a pretty good M-16 style black gun. I traded a 9mm full-size away some years ago for a nice long-gun, and regret it. It was one of the best-shooting, most accurate 9mm guns I've owned.

What's your experience with these guns? Any hands-on experience?


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Full Metal Jacket said:

no.

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comments like these are useless here