Indian Army finds 5.56 ineffective and wants more AKs

I think the commander of GSG-9, Germany's special forces, had it right. At the Infantry Symposium last year, sponsored by Rheinmetal, there was a discussion about the lethality of the 5.56. He commented that "The SS109 round was perfectly lethal up to 400 meters if the soldiers would hit what they were shooting at. I love the American soldier but they are not being taught marksmanship. The best rifle marksmanship training in America is from a private group called 'Johnny Appleseed' or some such thing."

He was referring to the RWVA's Appleseed Project.

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Unless someone can pull up a credible source for this I'm simply calling BS. I don't mean to hurt any Appleseed fans' feelings, but their program teaches zero about combat shooting, though they apparently try to dress the program up like it does.

This is what some of those special forces troops had to say:

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Actually find some 18 series guys and talk to them. I spent almost five years assigned to an SFG and can't think of a single guy with a long tab who questioned 5.56mm getting the job done. Especially non-skeptical were the guys who had actually put rounds into bad guys -- probably their comfort with the round stemming from the fact that it very reliably kills people. And that was shooting folks with standard green tip, not any sort of fancy magic bullets that the rank and file in Big Army can only dream about.

I think the commander of GSG-9, Germany's special forces, had it right.

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Founded after the 1973 big goof-up at Munich "München is the real name for those who speak proper Deutsch" Grenzschutzgruppe 9 aka GSG9 is a police type organization which is now part of the Bundespolizei, formerly being called Bundesgrenzschutz.
They win all sorts of SWAT competitions and all sorts of other neat stuff. But they are not a military unit.

The Army KSK, Kommando Spezialkräfte and the Navy Bataillon Spezialisierter Kräfte is the real special forces type military unit of the German Bundeswehr and Bundesmarine.

Things have dramatically changed in German military politics ever since the flood from the East side came over..
Including the fact that all my West Bavarian relatives have to hide all their guns and can't go shooting.

Especially non-skeptical were the guys who had actually put rounds into bad guys

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See...you have to actually put the bullets into the bad guys for starters...

Indian Army troops pretty much fought everywhere the British Army fought: France, North Africa, Burma, Syria, Italian Somaliland, Italy ect. There was also a small military unit that fought on the side of the Japanese. The Indian Army has a proud fighting tradition. The Shikh units were particularly good.

Compared with other Third-world armies the Indian Army is pretty good. They held their own in the 1962 war against China. They beat the Pakistanis in 1965 and 1971 in hard fought campaigns. Of course, they are not up to Western standards, but compared to the other armies of emerging powers, they have nothing to be ashamed of.

Indian Journalists wouldnt know the difference between an AK and INSAS if you put it where the sun dont shine. Bunch of morons at best.

The Indian Army's doctorine is not to shoot to wound, but kill. And yes the forces are actually very well trainied.

By the laws of land warfare attempting to wound the enemy instead of outright killing them is illegal (Geneva Convention).

And I would say most firefights I've been in were 200-500 meters and we used to concept of accuracy through volume because its inordinately difficult to aim while you are getting shot at.

And as far as the lethality of 5.56? we had locals walk up to our FOB who were shot in the FACE where it just bounced out of their neck. We saw Talibs who took quite a few rounds to their chest and the rounds just punched straight through, yes they would have died eventually (tension-pneumothorax, hemorrhaging, infection, etc...), but they could still continue the firefight because they were hopped up on all kinds of drugs. Although the 7.62x51mm from our M240Bs would stop them dead, no pun intended.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_m8omH47gI&feature=related


Lethal Impact of M-16 Ammunition


This looks like it will ruin your day.

My earlier reference on lethality was to the M-193 round we used in Nam.

I've seen a ND where it went clean through one of our training SAPI plates (ceramic plate inserts in our flak jackets). Out of the literally hundreds of people I've seen shot by 5.56, none of them looked like what happened in that animation. It was almost always clean through, although like most rounds it destabilizes and takes a wild path through the body but it exits with less internal damage most of the time (compared to heavier rounds).

The M468 is the answer.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmiK_k0na6I

Cause AK47's are cheap, they can't afford to field a proper first world design and modern caliber.

Outside of Russia, the only army's that use AK's do so because they can't afford to purchase a modern design, or build their own. India's own rifle is a POS, and they can't afford to buy say a couple million SCAR 16's, M4's, G36's, etc. IE good modern weapons platforms.

I think the commander of GSG-9, Germany's special forces, had it right. At the Infantry Symposium last year, sponsored by Rheinmetal, there was a discussion about the lethality of the 5.56. He commented that "The SS109 round was perfectly lethal up to 400 meters if the soldiers would hit what they were shooting at. I love the American soldier but they are not being taught marksmanship. The best rifle marksmanship training in America is from a private group called 'Johnny Appleseed' or some such thing."

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They talked about this at the Appleseed, currently the Marines are still taught how to shoot.

Unless someone can pull up a credible source for this I'm simply calling BS. I don't mean to hurt any Appleseed fans' feelings, but their program teaches zero about combat shooting, though they apparently try to dress the program up like it does.

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No they don't, you should attend one. They pretty much teach the old AQT, I don't know when they stopped shooting it, but the old timers who qualified with a Garand would be very familiar with it. Or a Marine.

Also the Grendel 6.5m by Alexander arms is good.


You can get a 6.5m upper receiver for your m4 and shoot though cars.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSU4miMcSJQ&feature=related

henschman said:

... the commander of GSG-9 ... commented that "The SS109 round was perfectly lethal up to 400 meters if the soldiers would hit what they were shooting at. I love the American soldier but they are not being taught marksmanship. The best rifle marksmanship training in America is from a private group called 'Johnny Appleseed' or some such thing." He was referring to the RWVA's Appleseed Project.

Originally Posted by Horse Soldier
Unless someone can pull up a credible source for this I'm simply calling BS. I don't mean to hurt any Appleseed fans' feelings, but their program teaches zero about combat shooting, though they apparently try to dress the program up like it does.

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I'm sorry, but no. Appleseed teaches basic rifle marksmanship only - use of the sling for support, field positions, and the Rifleman's cadence - but no, not tacticool fire and maneuver. That said, the AS weekend and rifleman boot camp I went to compared favorably with my Basic Rifle Marksmanship training week in Marine Boot Camp.

The salient point remains unchanged - that our forces would greatly benefit from more in-depth marksmanship training and practice. The Brits used to require weekly marksmanship practice with rimfire rifles - and we used to pay expert marksmen a bonus for maintaining their skills. We can learn valuable lessons by studying what worked for those who came before us.

There is a huge difference between target shooting and combat, and at USMC boot camp and most marksmanship training I've been to focuses on target shooting. It's the ranges that we run for assaults, raids, or CMP shoots that builds combat shooting abilities, and those are run by the individual units. It does depend on the unit but most victory (infantry) units in the Corps get quite a bit of practice.

Combat shooting is useless if the shooter doesn't already have basic rifle skills. I know we all WISH that the army would put everyone on the range for six weeks, but they haven't the time, money, nor the inclination to do so.

Unless someone can pull up a credible source for this I'm simply calling BS. I don't mean to hurt any Appleseed fans' feelings, but their program teaches zero about combat shooting, though they apparently try to dress the program up like it does.

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Alas, this is correct. Appleseed teaches basic marksmanship, from the point of view of NRA High Power competitions - which are the inspiration for Appleseed.
Appleseed founder "Fred" is/was an ardent HP shooter, and that's what he based the program on.

That said, the marksmanship taught at Appleseed is good stuff!

That said, many internet yahoos seem to think there is a similarity in "field position" shooting and combat. Though such shots might be taken occasionally, it is not the norm for combat, from what I have heard.

This coming from someone who has attended 2 AS events, and many times shot the AS "Rifleman" score.

For the Appleseed folks who might say "combat shooting is useless if the shooter doesn't already have basic rifle skills."
I say the reverse is equally true: basic marksmanship in combat is useless if you don't back it up with proper tactics.
Can't have one without the other. Like the rifleman's "prayer" -

Without me my rifle is useless. Without my rifle, I am useless.

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I would take this a step further and say:
"Without tactics, marksmanship is useless. Without marksmanship, tactics are useless."

I still maintain that soldiers being trained are much better off if they have already had good training and shooting experience growing up.

I wonder if they are shooting it up in the air and screaming and hollering at the enemy?.....................(with no sterotyping implied)

Really! i did not mean it that way.............

Indians are not like the gents we fight overseas.

HorseSoldier said:

Never handled one, but INSAS has been pretty widely known as a mediocre, at best, weapon, reflecting a very poor case of borrowing from various previous designs. India got the "prestige" of fielding a local design that sort of demonstrated that maybe they should have shopped abroad.

As for the Indian MoD fielding a 5.56mm weapon because of their desire to only wound the enemy . . . either the reporter writing this piece is a retard, or the Indian powers that be are idiots. Nobody outside the subcontinent has ever fielded 5.56x45 for a desire to only wound the enemy, urban myths aside, so it begs the question of where the stupid enters the equation in India. Given the fact that reporters the world over are still reporters, my money is on the media, but I could be wrong.

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Well, the Insas also fires the 5.56x30, which I would think is even less lethal than the x45. But all in all, well said.

The 5.56x30 "MINSAS" caliber is more or less a PDW caliber with similar applications to the FN 5.7x28. I don't think they deploy it often to their rank and file troops. Otherwise, the INSAS uses 5.56x45 NATO.

I really like the following argument.
http://www.chuckhawks.com/243_service_rifle.htm

A friend of mine has a DSA FAL in .243, I'm not sure if they still make them, but it's extremely fun, accurate, and soft, for a FAL.

"...Oil spillage while firing is also major trouble,'' said a source quoting soldiers."
What?!!? That is a direct quote form the article link in the OP. This alone is enough to make me have serious questions about the validity of ANYTHING else stated there.

Or maybe in the context of Appleseed, they're talking to Cooks, not Riflemen

Chuck Hawks gets a lot of facts mixed up. That article referenced is an excellent example of someone with a little knowledge and a web site. Give you a hint - he has no idea what 5.56 NATO is and why .243 is an over-bore cartridge.