What causes inaccuracy in a 9mm Broomhandle Mauser?

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billcalley

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Just got back from the range after testing my 9mm C96 Broomhandle, and I was not able to get better than 12" groups at 25 yards [:cuss:] , and yet the pistol is tight and the bore is virtually pristine (I also drove a 9mm FMJ bullet from the chamber to the muzzle with a nylon hammer and brass rod, and the bullet definitely engaged the rifling as it took quite a few strong whacks to finally drive it through the bore). :banghead:

My Mauser C96 looks and feels almost like a new gun, and with the inherent Broomhandle attribute of the sights, slide, and barrel being part of a single mono-block, I don't see how a Broom with decent rifling could shoot less than stellar groups. :mad: (FYI: the bore shows some slight pitting just after the freebore).

Any thoughts? :confused:

[Further info below after pictures].


Thanks!

-Bill :uhoh:

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My Broomhandle's Dimensions:

DIAMETER OF BARREL AT LANDS (1" past muzzle): 0.351"

DIAMETER OF BARREL AT GROOVES (1" past muzzle): 0.359"

DIAMETER OF CHAMBER AT START: 0.383"

DIAMETER OF CHAMBER AT CENTER: 0.380"

DIAMETER OF CHAMBER AT END: 0.375"

DIAMETER OF FREEBORE: 0.357"
 

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DIAMETER OF BARREL AT GROOVES (1" past muzzle): 0.359"
Well, seeing as how a 9mm bullet is .355" that might be .004" too loose.

Also, the bore dia right at the muzzle is far more importent then 1" down inside it.

Could be 100 years of cleaning rod wear has made a blunderbus out of the muzzle!

rc
 
Doubt it is 100 years old.
A 9mm Para Mauser with detachable magazine sure looks like one of the "reproductions of non-existent guns" made up by Federal Ordnance on Communist Chinese surplus actions in the 1980s.
The rebarrel looks like a rather rough and oversize tube.
Try some .38 Special bullets. In 9mm brass of course.
 
That gun was not originally in 9mm; the only C96's Mauser made in 9x19 were the "Red Nine" contract guns and that is not one of those. It was originally in 7.63 Mauser (7.62x25) and most likely one of those that came in from China. The barrels on most were so bad, and the correct ammo was (then) expensive, so the importers had many of them reworked to use 9mm Para (9x19 or 9mm Luger). Some just had the barrels rebored and re-rifled, but really bad ones had the rear of the barrel drilled out and a new 9mm barrel inserted. Yours is one of the latter conversions as the "step" in the barrel makes obvious.

That would not necessarily make the gun inaccurate, but it is well known that the importers were not turning out target pistols; they did not use high quality barrels, nor was the work always the best. I would not be surprised if the barrel dimensions are wrong, the barrel work rough or even if the insert barrel were loose in the stub barrel.

Jim
 
Thanks guys.

Yes, Jim and Jim are correct, this is a BTC (Bricklee Trading Company [Fed Ord]) rework of a selective fire (Schnellfeuer) M712 Mauser Broomhandle from China. They removed the old barrel and chamber and installed a new 9mm one in the 1980's. However, the frame itself could not be imported (BATF!), so BTC had new semi-auto frames built (I believe in China).

The rework of the Bricklee C96's is supposed to be pretty darn good, and to my semi-trained eyes it is. The gun, as I said, is tight, and the bore is not rusted (a bit rough, yes). And, as I said, I drove a 9mm JHP through the bore with a heavy cleaning rod and a hammer, and it was quite a chore (but should it have been even MORE difficult? I don't know. Please see pics below).

The "new" BTC barrel/chamber appears perfectly attached and tight.

I even tried 147grain ammo to slow down the bullet and to get better purchase on the rifling, just in case the 115 grainers where skipping over the rifling; but it didn't seem to affect the accuracy any.

Picture of the 9mm jacketed bullet that I drove through the bore (Should it have been more indented by the rifling?):

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-Bill :confused:
 

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Boy, am I behind the times!!

Ahh, now I think I see your point RCmodel and Jim(s). Believe it or not, I just learned that a modern bullet should be the same size as the groove diameter of the bore, unlike the minie-balls of old with their expanding, gas-checking bases! I think I'm a wee bit behind the times. :eek:

Looks like I need to handload now, which I wanted to avoid, and take RCmodel's advice and use a .38 Special bullet with a 9mm case. (Boy, do I see trouble brewing with my complete reloading ignorance and the mixing and matching of case/bullet calibers!! :what:)

-Bill

PS: Given my Broomhandle's "generous" bore diameter of .359", is even a .38 Special bullet going to be big enough to hack it? :confused:
 
Try slugging the bore with an egg sinker and lube of some sort. You will get a better idea of "actual" groove diameter with that method. If it comes out to .357 (My Hi Power does) you can size your bullets to .358 and load in 9MM cases. That is if you reload of course......
 
If your chamber is generous enough, using .357" jacketed or .358" lead bullets may work.

However, if the chamber is fairly tight, loads with over-size bullets may not chamber.

Another option is to spend some more money on it and have Redmond fix it right by making it a 7.63 Mauser again.
http://redmansrifling.com/mauser.htm

No mention on his website of whether he could do a 9mm liner but it would be worth a call to find out.

rc
 
Who knows where they got those barrels or what the specs were/are? If they found a bunch of old .38 barrels, they might well have used them. If you go to a .38 bullet, though, watch the size of the chamber neck. Even if the rounds chamber with the larger bullet, there might not be enough room for neck expansion and pressures could go off the scale.

Poor QC? Sure. The importers just wanted to put together something they could sell and make some money out of those piles of rusty iron and steel they got from China. The Chinese basically showed the Americans a few good guns and a lot of junk and told them to buy all or nothing. So in order to get some good stuff, they had to buy a lot of trash and they wanted to get as much as they could out of it.

Jim
 
How accurate were the actual C96s? Having taken a few apart, I didn't see anything about them that would make me think "tack driver!"
 
Hi Owen,

With the combination of a long sight radius and a mono-block that comprises the slide, sights, barrel and chamber, the C-96 is similar to a .22LR pistol, which are far more accurate than most 9mm and .45 cal locked-breach recoil operated firearms, which of course use separate barrels and slides flopping around (and most centerfires also have the sights riding on the slide, and not on the barrel).

So, C-96's have all the makings of an extremely accurate weapon, except that mine, unfortunately, has a bore groove diameter of 0.359"! :fire: And there doesn't appear to be any solution to my problem except for a barrel reline; but I don't like waiting six (or more) months for that job to get done by Redman's! :cuss: (Reloading looks out of the question too due to chamber dimensions that won't accommodate a much larger bullet). :banghead:

Best,

-Bill
 
Just a side comment. I (years ago) bought one of those 9mm detachable mag broomies and took it to the range. It would go full auto on me with every pull of the trigger. After 2 mags full (one in absolute shock and the other for fun), I took it back to the dealer and told him the problem and traded it in.

The sear was not really catching and the disconnector was not working so it would get just barely catch and then when the bolt slammed home it would nock the hammer off the hooks and go auto.

Watch for this with yours. The one I had may be a fluke but watch for it. Also mine was a 45 lower with a 9mm upper. You could tell somehow but for the life of me I cannot remember why.
 
I bought a C96 a few years back in 7.63x25 Mauser, serial number in the 107 thousand range (1912-1913), marked KFS ATL GA (Keng's Firearms Specialty, Atlanta, GA.)

It is not a 9mm but it has a similar problem: the bore is oversized for the standard bullet diameter for .30 Mauser (7.63mm) due to 90+ years of erosion. Neither 7.63 Mauser nor 7.62 Tokarev would group better than 18" at 25 yards. I did recall that in the old days, as muzzleloader barrels wore, the bullet mold would be re-cherried to a larger diameter, until the barrels got to the point they needed to be rerifled and rebored to a larger caliber. In other words, I needed to find a bullet size to fit.

This is my best target using handloads of .312" diameter bullets intended for .32 H&R or .32 ACP (standard bullet diameter for 7.63 Mauser pistol is 7.82 mm (.308").

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(25 yds off hand, ten shots 95-2x, load 1.0cc Triple 7, black powder cartridge match, 6 Sep 08)
If bore of the barrel is too large to stabilize the standard diameter bullet, go to a larger bullet.
 
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I had the exact same problem, Peter, with my 9mm detachable mag C96, originally re-furbished by BTC (Bricklee Trading Company) in the '80s.

I had bought it from Ebay (when Ebay allowed such things) for a good price, but after it would double and triple on me a few times, it so scared me to death that I actually put my Broom away for the last ten years.

Then a few months ago I said the heck with it, and I studied up on the workings of C-96's so that I could fix the problem myself. This basically involved increasing sear engagement and replacing all of the coil springs. Now I never have doubling at all. (However, it would make me feel much better if I could somehow add a coil spring to bear down on the sear so that no matter what, the sear will re-engage the hammer notch. But that would be belt and suspenders...)

Carl, I wish my C96's chamber could fit a larger bullet, but it is too iffy. Plus, I don't reload. (BTW, The pic of your target is not showing up in my browser...).

Best,

-Bill
 
I have fired a fair number of C96's, including an original "Red Nine" and they give decent but not spectacular accuracy, around 3+ inches at 25 yards from a hand rest. In other words about what you would expect from a quality factory pistol. I have had Colt GMs and Lugers that shot as well or better. I once fired a friend's P.38, a common ac 42 gun, that shot under an inch at 25 yards. I couldn't believe it. P.38s are not known for super accuracy, but in that one everything must have come together right.

Jim
 
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