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Problem with Wolf barrel for 9mm Glock 19

Discussion in 'Handloading and Reloading' started by Samari Jack, Apr 7, 2012.

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  1. Samari Jack

    Samari Jack Member

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    Received a Wolf 9mm Luger, I think, barrel for my Glock 19 this past week. Also received my shipment from Misourri bullet Co. for 125 gr RN lead bullets.

    Reloaded 20 with 4.2 gr Universal with OAL at 1.122. I used my original Glock barrel as a sizing die. Passed the ker-plunk test with flying colors in my Glock barrel. Even tapped the round in with a light finger tap and still fell out of my Glock barrel without having to shake it out. Tried to shoot 20 that I reloaded as a test load with the Wolf barrel. The slide wouldn't close all the way on the first round with the Wolf barrel and I had a heck of a time getting the slide back to eject the round. Put these twenty into my bullet puller bin for later. Just tried to load some with an OAL even shorter. Was down to 1.108 and still failed the ker-plunk test (see picture of the 125 gr lead). In fact, I could not lightly tap the round in far as it should, at lest with a light tap. My comfort zone was compromised going less than 1.108 with a 125 gr bullet without further advice, especially since my Glock barrel was a good fit.

    Diameter after seating is 0.380. Diameter mid case is 0.375. Diameter at case head (the primer end of the brass) is 0.385. Not that it matters but the brass is R-P once fired.

    I tried factory R-P new 1.15 gr jacketed round. Seemed to fully insert with a light tap but had to shake hard to get it out. OAL for these factory rounds are 1.175. The jacketed round tapers faster than the lead. I have a few Hornady Factory 115 gr FTX loads that are really short (1.082) and taper rapidly. They passed the ker-plunk test OK.

    I hate to think I'm limited to Factory FTX loads.

    Any ideas? I bought the barrel from Dillon and plan to give them a call Monday if I'm not messing up somewhere. My packing slip calls it a "LWD GLK 19 BARREL".

    The Wolf barrel says 9mm but doesn't say Luger. Not sure if this matters or not.

    The pictures are with lead reload in Wolf still sticking out a bit, with Glock barrel, with Hornady FTX.

    PICTURES COMING!!
     
  2. Samari Jack

    Samari Jack Member

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    Pictures for above.
     

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  3. Vec

    Vec Member

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    Two things come to mind:

    1) Your new barrel might have less leade than the stock barrel. This is the space between the case mouth and the start of the rifling. If that's the case, you'll need to seat the bullet a bit further in.

    2) The new barrel might have a tighter chamber. The lead bullet is 0.001" bigger than a jacketed bullet so that might be the culprit -- though I'd be really surprised if that were the case.

    To check for #1, take a fired case that you can slide a bullet into with a little resistance. Start the bullet into the case and press the case into the chamber. The rifling should push the bullet into the case. Push the bullet/case out with a cleaning rod or something. Measure the overall length. Do this a bunch of times to make a good reading. Then, aim for an OAL less than that since you don't want to jam the bullet into the rifling.
     
  4. Samari Jack

    Samari Jack Member

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    Great suggestion for #1. I did this. In order for the round to fall out without shaking or taping the barrel on something I came up with an overall length of 1.055. 1.060 still catches a bit. I have to tap the barrel on a piece of wood to get it to fall out at 1.060. At 1.055, I have 0.325 of the bullet outside the brass and 0.278 inside, give or take a bit for each measurement. Using the bullet diameter+thumb nail length for bullet depth, this is still a bit shy of what I understand it is supposed to be. From the Hodgin website, With Universal/lead I'm supposed to have an OAL of 1.125 with 125 gr RN bullets. With Universal at 4.2, I'm probably compressing the powder a bit in a 9mm brass.

    Starting to get out of my comfort zone. I'm not that experienced a reloader. Hopefully, someone else with a Wolf barrel will see this thread and chime in. I'll try to call Wolf the first of next week too.
     
  5. Hammerdown77

    Hammerdown77 Member

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    Don't waste any more time with it, call Wolf and tell them the problems you are having. Their chambers are often too short and tight. Your's is probably too short. I've had a .40 and a 9mm barrel, both with the same problem.

    They will finish ream your chamber for you if you call them and tell them your troubles.
     
  6. Samari Jack

    Samari Jack Member

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    Thanks!! Will do. Glad to here from someone with experience. The bullet push thing is still good to know. All kinds of neat tricks not found in books with reloading.

    I plan to as Wolf if there 9mm barrels are +P rated too.

    I kind of surprised Dillon doesn't warn people about this since most of their products are top shelf. I know they didn't make the barrel but can see potential danger. I plan to call the as well.
     
  7. Vec

    Vec Member

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    That being said, the MO Bullet 125gn round bullet has a fatter ogive than normal for a typical 9mm so it might be a bit tight for your barrel.

    The Hodgdon site lists a starting load for 125gn w/Universal for 3.8gn. Even with what you have now, seating to 1.055 instead of 1.125 with the starting load should be well within the safety margin. The powder with that load shouldn't be compressed at that point either.

    As always, start low and work up.
     
  8. jack44

    jack44 Member

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    I went thru the same as you Jack bought from Dillon slide wont close all the way want to shoot lead not jacked! same bullets to!!
     
  9. Samari Jack

    Samari Jack Member

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    I was just reading the FAQ of Wolf's web site. Mentioned a $30.00 charge for reaming to meet specific handloads. I may have to fuss if they charge me extra. My view is the barrel should meet dimensions of commonly used rounds with established loads without getting into dangerous overpressure and in the case of an auto, a length that cycles the slide. If these criterion are not on the menu, let purchasers know ahead of time.
     
  10. jim243

    jim243 Member

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    Since the standard weight for 9mm is 115 grain FMJ or JHP, I would imagine that that is what Wolf was aiming for when they made your barrel. 124 grain and 147 grain 9mm Luger is a longer bullet.

    Jim
     
  11. GLOOB

    GLOOB Member

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    Seat your bullets shorter. If you get down to 1.055"and it still doesn't fit, then you can call that chamber too tight.

    I've put 1k MBC Small Ball through LW and stock Glock barrels. All seated to 1.055" so they could fit in a Daewoo DP51 I used to own. My LW barrel is pretty generous, IIRC, but not quite as long in the leade as the Glock. But I still seat this bullet to 1.055" because if I ever buy a new gun, I want my reloads to fit in it.

    What you guys are calling a problem, other people call a feature, aka "match grade barrel." If this barrel is defective, then all XD's are defective.

    So you have to test it by established standards, such as with a big name manufacturer bullet that lists a minimum recommended OAL. Where did you establish that the MBC is supposed to seat at least 1.108"?

    I cite 1.055" as an "established OAL" for the MBC, because this was the max that would chamber in my DP-51. Same gun would barely chamber a 124 gr XTP at the manufacturer recommended OAL for that particular bullet (which was listed on the box as 1.06" IIRC). So I'd say 1.055" is a pretty close estimation for the 125 gr MBC Small Ball as a standard reference. Just cuz my stock Glock barrel can chamber these bullets with a much longer OAL doesn't make the LW or the Daewoo barrel defective.

    So if you don't like the idea of loading to an OAL shorter than 1.1", you might have to blame the bullet, not the barrel.
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2012
  12. coalman

    coalman Member

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    LWD barrels are tight, at the low end of spec IMO. I have to load everything short in all 9mm and .45acp LWD barrels I've run w/ lead; pretty much to the driving band.
     
  13. Samari Jack

    Samari Jack Member

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    GLOOB,

    After reading your post, I went to my Lyman 49th edition. It listed an OAL for 120 gr #2 Alloy at 1.065 for all the powders listed. Universal, HP-38, and WSF are the only powders I have and are not listed. Doesn't seem like the rate of burn or type of powder makes much difference in OAL for these bullets. Curious as to why the OAL is so much less in Lyman's than Hodgdon's data. From 1.125 to 1.065 seems a lot for the same bullet, but then again I'm still learning about this reloading bit.

    I feel a little better about loading to 1.055 now after reading input from others. I still plan to contact Wolf and maybe Hodgdon before I actually shoot the barrel and start at the lowest recommended powder weight.
     
  14. bds
    • Contributing Member

    bds Member

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    Samari Jack, Lone Wolf barrels are cut tight, meant for jacketed bullet diameter loads, and loading larger diameter lead bullets will take more reloading consistency/work on your part.

    1. First things first. Can you verify that all factory rounds fall in the chamber freely with a "plonk"? If they do, your LW barrel is within specs for jacketed bullet loads and you'll need to look at your reloading process.


    2. Next, can you verify that all of the resized cases you are using to make test rounds fall freely into the chamber? If they don't, they need to be full-length resized until they do. Some "hot" loads in generous factory barrels/chambers will expand the case base and won't resize fully - When I resize a case that requires more effort, I check to make sure the bottom of the resizing die is "kissing" the top of the shell holder/plate. If not, I will rotate the case 90 degrees and resize again then drop the case into the LW chamber to check. If it won't fully chamber, I consider the case expanded too much/case wall thinned and toss the case into the bin for recycling.

    To rule out this reloading variable, can you remake all of your MBC test rounds with resized cases that passed the chamber drop test?


    3. Double-check the diameter of the bullet - They should be sized at .356".


    [​IMG]

    4. Missouri 125 gr RN bullet nose is shorter and rounder than typical pointed "parabellum" or "stepped" 9mm lead bullets to allow for longer bearing surface/easier feeding in some newer pistols and will need to be seated deeper. For my LW barrels, I use 1.080"-1.100" OAL and they feed/chamber reliably in G17/G22/G27.

    [​IMG]


    5. Your test rounds not seating fully may not be due to OAL but from not enough taper crimp. If you are using combination bullet seat/taper crimp die for tight chambers (Lone Wolf, Sig 1911, etc.), there is a point where not enough taper crimp won't seat the round fully in the chamber and too much taper crimp will bulge the case neck to also not fully chamber the round (This is one of the reasons why some reloaders prefer to seat and taper crimp in separate steps).

    For .356" sized bullets, I need to use .376" taper crimp for Lone Wolf barrels as these will drop snuggly fully into the chambers. .377" taper crimp will rub the chamber lightly but will fully chamber with the weight/force of the slide returning to battery.

    Make a test round at 1.080" OAL and .376" taper crimp and see if it drops freely into the chamber and feed reliably from the magazine. If it does, then test 1.100" OAL with .376" taper crimp. If both OALs chamber fully, especially if you are loading on a progressive press, I would set the OAL at 1.090" to allow for some OAL variations to fluctuate between 1.080"-1.100".

    If .376" taper crimp won't allow the rounds to fully chamber (even with a light rubbing of chamber), then you may need to have your chamber enlarged. Lone Wolf warranty is for jacketed diameter bullet specs and they will charge to enlarge the chamber for larger lead diameter loads. You can enlarge the chamber yourself as you only need to enlarge the chamber by .001" or so. I enlarged a G27 Lone Wolf chamber on this thread using automotive wet/dry sandpaper - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=561116
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2012
  15. Samari Jack

    Samari Jack Member

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    bds,

    The 1.080 OAL with Missouri 125 gr RN with a .376 crimp seems to be the charm.

    I have a 550B reloader with separate stations for bullet seating and another for the crimp.

    I did the ker-plunk test with the only three factory 9 mm rounds I have. R-P, Speer Lawman, and Hornady critical defense FTX. The R-Ps I checked were the only snug factory round. It had to be shaken a bit to get it out but not to any extreme. The others just fell out while inverted.

    I checked my once fired brass after sizing and they fell out of the LW barrel when inverted.

    The diameter of my Missouri bullets I checked are .355. You mentioned .356. I figure +-.001 most likely is due to my operator error, not a factor, and in this instance, less is better.

    Seems most of my problems were due to not enough crimp on the Missouri RN lead bullets once I shortened the length. Once I got the crimp down to .356, the round fell fully into the barrel. With inversion, the round didn't fall out but a light tap with my finger on the side of the barrel shook it out.

    I'm probably going to give this a try with 3.8 gr Universal as a starting point since this is what is in my hopper. Probably end up with HP-38 as the preferred powder.

    The major reason I bought this barrel was to avoid the leading, (or supposedly leading) issues with a stock Glock barrel. If I would have known there was this kind of problem with the LW barrel, I doubt I would have purchased one. Not worth the aggravation. Thankfully, the Berry's plated bullets I've already loaded seem to fall in & out OK. I'll probably check each one before firing through the LW barrel.

    I'll check the other three 9's I own too before firing but don't anticipate a problem with them. The oldest is a Browning High Power. I figure it was raised on lead bullets:).
     
  16. jack44

    jack44 Member

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    I'm DONE WITH THE GLOCK 19! I'm buying a 9mm revolver this way no PROBLEMS! I spent 100.to buy the LW barrel now it's to tight! forget that I'm putting the gun up 4 sale 450 it's yours.:mad:
     
  17. bds
    • Contributing Member

    bds Member

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    Samari Jack, there are benefits of using aftermarket barrels in Glocks with square cut land/groove rifling. Glock barrels have longer leade with very smooth start of rounded hill/valley hexagonal rifling (see picture below). The longer leade and smooth start of rifling allow more high pressure gas to escape around the bullet and causes more fouling build up and may not allow the bearing surface of the bullet to grip the rifling to rotate with the rifling down the barrel.

    When shooting lead bullets in Glock barrels, I have had somewhat adequate results using W231/HP-38 at mid-to-high range load data. With 18 BHN Missouri 9mm and 40S&W bullets, I do not get leading in my Glock barrels but do get more fouling build up along the rifling. Below are pictures of Glock 17 barrel after I did some range test with MBC 125 gr RN and SWC loads with W231/HP-38. Yes, that's fouling build up and not leading. Note that the picture on the right of the muzzle end shows significant fouling build up only after about 100 rounds. When shooting lead loads in factory Glock barrels, I usually inspect my barrels after 200-300 rounds and clean as necessary. Despite the fouling build up, accuracy was maintained as 7-10-15 yard shot groups off hand were comparable. The fouling build up was removed with a copper bore brush after a Hoppes #9 solvent soak.

    Chamber end of barrel / Muzzle end of barrel
    [​IMG]
    Chamber end of barrel / Muzzle end of barrel
    [​IMG]



    In comparison, below are LW 40-9 G22/G27 conversion barrels with several hundred rounds of same MBC 125 gr RN loads shot through. If you look at the "dirty" barrel pictures, fouling build up is less and greater accuracy is maintained. Unlike fouling build up in the Glock barrel, the picture on the right of the muzzle end of the barrel shows less fouling build up even after several hundred rounds of lead reloads. The LW barrels cleaned up well with Hoppes #9 soaked copper bore brush. Any fouling/lead residue that won't comes out clears easily with old bore brush wrapped with copper scrubber strands (chore boy).

    Chamber end of barrel / Muzzle end of barrel
    [​IMG]
    Chamber end of barrel
    [​IMG]
     

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    Last edited: Apr 8, 2012
  18. RhinoDefense

    RhinoDefense Member

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    It's not the gun, it's the crappy barrel made by LWD that's the problem. You can send it back to LWD and have them open the throat like they should have done in the first place or you can pay attention to what is being told to the OP to make his ammunition fit the chamber. Then work up your load slowly. Yet another option is to return your LWD and get a better quality barrel from KKM that won't have issues that the LWD barrel is known for having.

    Throwing your hands up in frustration is not going to solve any problems. It never has.

    Furthermore, buying a 9mm revolver presents a whole different set of variables. If you're this quick to give up on an autopistol, you will encounter a nightmare when you have to deal with 6 chamber throat dimensions plus the barrel's groove diameter.

    Relax, fix this problem using the advice given before you waste money on a set of new problems.
     
  19. jack44

    jack44 Member

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    Well Rhino I seated the lead bullet to 1.030 and it still got stuck!.
     
  20. RhinoDefense

    RhinoDefense Member

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    The barrel sucks because it's made by a company that doesn't understand what they are doing when it comes to chamber and throat dimensions. That's your problem.

    Your solution has been stated: send it back and have LWD throat the chamber or get rid of the LWD barrel and buy a barrel from someone who actually knows what they are doing, like KKM.
     
  21. jack44

    jack44 Member

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    Hey Rhino what if I use 115gr.lead thats should fed ......right? As far as the LW barrel yeah I'm selling it.
     
  22. RhinoDefense

    RhinoDefense Member

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    Are you paying attention to anything that has been said here? I suggest you read the thread again.
     
  23. Samari Jack

    Samari Jack Member

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    Did some test loads using the 125 Gn lead MBC bullets. Tried OAL at 1.080, 1.090 with 3.8 gr Universal. They wouldn't fall in and fall out but a light tap with my finger dislodged them from the barrel at 1.080. At 1.090 I had to push them in place and put these in the "puller box", choosing not to force the issue without further feedback or testing. Chrimp was as mentioned above. Test fired at 1.080. I didn't let the slide slam closed but eased the action closed allowing only the slide spring to fully close on the bullet for the first round in my magazine. All twenty in my test batch function without a hiccup in my Glock 19 with the LW barrel.

    I notice when measuring the OAL that some of the RN bullets have a bit more of a flat nose than others. I measured the OAL of these bullets, not loaded, and noticed a difference of up to 0.012 in length. I suppose getting slapped around in the box could have flattened some of them a bit. My 550B actually pushes on the shoulder of the bullet instead of the tip resulting in varied OAL. What seem to be a better indication of bullet seating depth is to eyeball first and measure, if applicable, the filed down ring around the bullet or the dull area around the base of the bullet. Probably not the right terminology but hopefully the picture explains what I'm talking about. The picture also shows some with a point flatter than others.

    The chrony speeds kind of surprised me with this somewhat light load when compared to plated or jacketed bullets with the same powder load. Throwing out the high and low average for 10 rounds was 1,046. Not exactly a hot load but satisfactory for practice purposes. At least it cycled.
     

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  24. bds
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    bds Member

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    Keep in mind that your chamber will get tighter as you shoot and fouling will build up on chamber surface. I lean towards finishing my rounds so they fall in/out freely to allow for some fouling build up and still maintain reliably feeding/chambering. If you are at your reloading dies' limits in attaining such finished dimensions before starting to swage the bullet base, light polishing of the forward part of the chamber with automotive wet/dry sandpaper will enlarge the chamber and give you reliable feeding and chambering, even with a dirty chamber from shooting several hundred rounds. ;)


    .
    I have shot older generations of 9mm lead bullet designs that were more pointed and had shorter "stepped" bullet base and I think the shorter/rounder bullet nose shape of MBC 125 gr RN that allows for longer bearing surface provides better seal with the barrel, which would result in more consistent chamber pressures and higher velocities.

    Look forward to your range report as you work up your powder charges.
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2012
  25. Samari Jack

    Samari Jack Member

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    bds,

    light polishing of the forward part of the chamber with automotive wet/dry sandpaper will enlarge the chamber and give you reliable feeding and chambering, even with a dirty chamber from shooting several hundred rounds.

    I think I have some 600 grit paper. What grit would you recommend? I have a wood dowel I could saw a notch in it or use a cleaning rod to hold the paper. I'm assuming this would be done in stages, trial and error to not sand to much. There seems to be a rather sharp, abrupt step in the barrel at the junction of the chamber and the rifling, more so than the stock Glock barrel.. I suspect this is what is contacting the lead. I thought about putting some chalk on the bullet to check. What about polishing a bit out of this step as well?
     
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