Titanium Weapons

Titanium heats up very quickly, is hard on machining tools and is more expensive than other metals to buy as stock material.

Im no metal expert so take what i say for what it is.

Im used to dealing with Ti being used in knifes.
While there are a very few rare knives that are all 100% Ti, They wont take a sharp edge or hold one long both. Many times the maker if he really wants that knife to cut will fit a small sliver of steel affixed into the Ti blade so it will work decently.
The second route is to put an abrasive coating on the edge like diamond coatings to do the work. A 100% Ti knife Is pretty much like making a knife out of carbon fiber.

I know it sounds dumb to tell you about knives, But its easier to explain a lot this way.
Knives are simple tools with a very simply use usually which is to cut things.
But in a gun, Imagine all the things you would be asking that metal to do.

Just so you know Ti is not stronger than steel.
By size, Steel is stronger. But Ti is lighter.
Its when you can make Ti into parts the steel used to do and still be lighter than steel thats when it becomes really useful. Thats why NASA uses it.
But for Ti to be as strong as steel it must be thicker or larger, Even then its lighter than steel.

That also brings up another issue. You cant have a gun thats a mix of steel and Ti either.
Ti will eat the steel up wear wise. In knives you need to keep Ti/steel contact points greased so the steel isn't worn prematurely.

The other issues would be that Ti is expensive to start with, Hard to cut and form.
Controlling its attributes of hardness and flexibility isn't as good as steel since it hasn't been used as much yet.

This is just me, But id think we will see an all polymer gun even in the not so distant future. But i have a feeling the Gov. wont like that idea to well.

Remington and Browning have made Ti receiver bolt action rifles. Taurus has made Ti revolver frames.

Titanium as a pure elemental metal is not particularly suitable for firearm design. Certain alloys, on the other hand.. I can't help but wonder how a titanium nitride coating would stack up against a Tenifer finish in terms of wear resistance...

You'd need a barrel liner of steel, trigger groups of steel, firing pin of steel for centerfire. You'd never be able to have a total 100% ti gun. Ti is good as it is inert and is nearly impervious to corrosion. I'd love to have a Taurus Ti tracker in 41 mag.

A problem with titanium is exposing it to water for prolonged time periods will make it brittle and liable to break. That's what happened to the Russian Typhoon-class submarines; they included titanium heavily in the design and as a result the subs broke.

SonOfRoost said:

I have been thinking about the most efficient designs for weapons lately (I aspire to be a gunsmith eventually, but that's for a different thread) and I was thinking to myself 'What's the best metal for an all metal combat or carry weapon?' and I immediately thought "TITANIUM!!!" I was wondering if anybody has heard of all titanium weapons, particularly 1911 and AR-15 variants. If anyone has I would greatly appreciate a point in the right direction to find them. By the way, please do not point me at anything that's "titanium colored" or has a titanium firing pin, I'm looking for a titanium gun, not a titanium part.

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I don't know of a totally titanium firearm but Caspian makes a frame for a 1911 in titanium (http://www.caspianarmsltd.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=10&Itemid=8).

I currently have a Caspian (steel frame) which was a Colt Commander (alloy frame) that the frame broke on and the part transfer to the Caspian. I've been think about purchasing a titanium frame to light the gun up again.

Theres a whole lot of misinformation here about Ti. Having seen what can go wrong while machining it (making axle halfshaft for Formula SAE cars), there is some information that you all need to hear.

First off, Ti, contrary to popular belief is not inert. It will auto ignite and burn without stopping in the following atmospheric conditions & temps:

100% Oxygen atmosphere at 610* C (1130* F)
100% Nitrogen atmosphere at 800* C (1470* F)
Normal atmosphere at 1200* C (2190* F)

At 550* C (1022* F) it begins reacting with chlorine, hydrogen, and other halogens. Its one of a few metals that will actually burn before it melts (1650* C or 3000* F melting point). Also, at 430* C (806* F), it looses its tensile strength.

Titanium is super elastic and most machine tools out there have a very tough time maintaining accuracy on the material because it deflects so much. It took me 18hrs to cut drive splines in titanium on a 4-axis MB-15 CNC mill and drive splines are a heck of a lot less accurate than most parts that I can think of on a gun. Also, while cutting those spline, I had a pile (about a half ounce or less of titanium) of chips catch fire. Before I could stomp my foot on it to put it out, the fire was so brilliant I was temporarily blinded and it burned a hole in a 18" thick reinforced concrete slab.

Titanium isn't a miracle metal. Look at what your application is first, then decide on a material. I wouldn't want titanium to be used any where there is heat approaching 430* C.

Ti does not do well with repeated impact loading, thus the use of steel cylinders on Ti framed revolvers.

the thing is....there is really no need and or market for titanium.

its somewhere in between steel and aluminum, both of which are heavily used in firearms....

titanium is as strong as steel only 40% lighter.......and it is twice as strong as aluminum only 60% heavier........


we have aluminum used heavily in firearms and they suffer from no ill effects.....a well made firearm will last several lifetimes.......so there is no need for the added strength from titanium.

that coupled with the fact that it is difficult to machine and it would undoubtedly increase the cost of the firearm significantly make it a relativity poor material to make guns with.

A problem with titanium is exposing it to water for prolonged time periods will make it brittle and liable to break. That's what happened to the Russian Typhoon-class submarines; they included titanium heavily in the design and as a result the subs broke.

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Again, more misinformation. Titanium becomes brittle under duteron & nuetron bombardment. Russian reactors used titanium as the vessel for containing the pile and wrapped the titanium in sheets of polyethylene (a hydrogen rich material) for the reactor shielding. The hulls of Alfa Class subs were 100% titanium (haven't ever seen or heard of titanium being used in the hulls of a Typhoon as they had 3 primary pressure hulls and at least 2 auxillary pressure hulls) and never failed due to being in water their whole life. It was poor reactor sheilding which lead to excessive nuclear bombardment on the titanium alloys.

Had the reactors been better shielded, I guarantee that Ti would have been just fine where it was used.

Nighthawk Talon made with Titanium frame.

You'd need a barrel liner of steel, trigger groups of steel, firing pin of steel for centerfire.

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Why? Don't SA 1911s use a titanium firing pin?

The Taurus PT709 is available with a titanium slide.

I would never use titanium for a barrel material to say the least. In addition to everything stated above, titanium is also less rigid than steel and I can only imagine that this would lead to accuracy problems, as the barrel vibrations will be greater than those of steel.

Ole Humpback said:

First off, Ti, contrary to popular belief is not inert. It will auto ignite and burn without stopping in the following atmospheric conditions & temps:

100% Oxygen atmosphere at 610* C (1130* F)
100% Nitrogen atmosphere at 800* C (1470* F)
Normal atmosphere at 1200* C (2190* F)

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You're going to have to describe the burning in a 100% nitrogen atmosphere for me.

General Geoff said:

I can't help but wonder how a titanium nitride coating would stack up against a Tenifer finish in terms of wear resistance...

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I think it's safe to say that the titanium nitride coating itself, as a material, would be superior in wear resistance, but the question is whether it bonds to the steel strongly enough to be superior overall (i.e. will it flake off?); the coating would also be extremely thin out of necessity. That's in comparison to Tenifer, by the way, not the black finish on Glocks and some other Tenifer-treated guns, which is different (and not nearly as wear-resistant as either). Smith & Wesson uses PVD (I'm guessing TiAlN) coatings on some of their revolver cylinders, so you might want to look into that for research.

osteodoc08 said:

You'd need a barrel liner of steel, trigger groups of steel, firing pin of steel for centerfire.

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Aren't titanium firing pins fairly commonplace in some circles?

osteodoc08 said:

You'd never be able to have a total 100% ti gun.

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Manufacturers may never make one, but I think it would be physically possible. On the other hand, it wouldn't be the best gun possible, perhaps bulkier (particularly the barrel) and less durable than a gun using steel where applicable.

Ole Humpback said:

Titanium is super elastic and most machine tools out there have a very tough time maintaining accuracy on the material because it deflects so much.

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Per volume, steel may not be much stronger than titanium, but it is far stiffer, which can be a very useful property, especially in compact machinery such as firearms as opposed to large structures such as airplanes and rockets. Each material has its uses.

brickeyee said:

Ti does not d well with repeated impact loading, thus the use of steel cylinders on Ti framed revolvers.

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Some of S&W's aluminum-scandium-framed revolvers have titanium cylinders, and from what I've been hearing the cylinders have had fewer issues than the frames when shooting hot ammo.

natman said:

You're going to have to describe the burning in a 100% nitrogen atmosphere for me.

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Oxygen may be one of the best and best-known oxidizing agents (hence its element name), but not all burning requires oxygen. Some metals, such as titanium, can and do burn with nitrogen, as unusual as that may seem based on common experience.

Taurus makes some models with titanium slides. Last I heard some experience cracking at relatively low round counts

According to one of my issues of Army Times the Army is going to switch to a new version of the M240B with a Titanium reciever. Theyre going to change designation to the M240L.

Manco said:

That's in comparison to Tenifer, by the way, not the black finish on Glocks and some other Tenifer-treated guns, which is different (and not nearly as wear-resistant as either).

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Just to be perfectly clear, the black finish on Glocks is on top of the Tenifer-treated metal--the finish wears off a lot easier than the Tenifer underneath. Some folks think they're the same thing, but they are not.

Soviet Union experimented with titanium alloys to make AK-47 lighter, but results were consistently negative. The same or similar alloys were successfully used in submarines and aircraft, so it's not because of lack of trying or technical skill.

Even 'aluminum' rifle actions like a Stolle Panda have a steel insert in the receiver that the barrel is screwed into and the bolt locks to.

There is no aluminum exposed to loading from firing.

'Alloy' 1911s still use a steel barrel.

IIRC the cylinder in 'Scandium' revolvers is steel.

Titanium and aluminum have fatigue life mechanisms not present in steel.

brickeyee said:

IIRC the cylinder in 'Scandium' revolvers is steel.

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Some models have a stainless steel cylinder:
http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/...57768_757767_757751_ProductDisplayErrorView_Y

while other models have a titanium cylinder (saves about 1.9 oz but costs more):
http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/...57768_757767_757751_ProductDisplayErrorView_Y

brickeyee said:

Titanium and aluminum have fatigue life mechanisms not present in steel.

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Actually, titanium seems to be more like steel in that regard:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&...+titanium++"fatigue+limit"&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=