RFID chips are like electronic bar codes. Without the database for the code for the thing it has no meaning.
Chiappa adding RFID chips to their guns
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The Wiry Irishman
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This.
I mean seriously, this is nothing to get worked up over. The gun industry is lagging decades behind other industries as far as lean manufacturing, supply chain management, and most other modern manufacturing techniques that increase quality and reduce manufacturing time and price. I for one am actually happy to see a gun company actually embracing new methods.
And I'm not sure people understand how RFID tags work. Its pretty much just a bar code you can read electronically without a direct sight line. There's two types, passive and active. Active ones run on an internal power source, and constantly broadcast the information that's stored on it. These are fairly expensive, and not often implemented in bulk. Passive RFID tags are much cheaper, as little a nickel a piece if you buy enough of them at once, and they draw their power from the RF frequencies emitted by the readers. The guns would have to be using passive tags, because active are way more expensive and their power supply is finite. You can't store much data on a passive tag, so if some bizarro-world tech ninja that some people seem to be afraid of is going to go wandering the streets with an RFID reader and gets a hit from your gun, he's more than likely going to end up with a random string of numbers and letters that only means anything to Chiappa supply chain management. They won't know you have a gun. Your gun isn't going to be emitting some constant tracking signal the government and the new world order can intercept, its going to have a tiny string of data only accessible to someone physically close with a compatible reader. And if someone is able to read the little string of data, and then are magically able to discern that it means you have a gun, honestly, what are they going to do?
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481
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If they (RFIDs) offend they can be removed easily per the manufacturer's instructions.
I wonder if people got this worked up when serial numbers on firearms became mandatory. Serial numbers are much harder to remove (it is also a highly illegal act, so don't try it) and screw up the appearance of a fine gun (IMO) whereas the little RFIDs don't since they can be removed with ease.
If you don't wanna pry 'em off, just a few seconds (which won't hurt the gun) in a cheap kitchen counter-top microwave will kill 'em pretty easily, too, since they are rather fragile devices.
I wonder if people got this worked up when serial numbers on firearms became mandatory. Serial numbers are much harder to remove (it is also a highly illegal act, so don't try it) and screw up the appearance of a fine gun (IMO) whereas the little RFIDs don't since they can be removed with ease.
If you don't wanna pry 'em off, just a few seconds (which won't hurt the gun) in a cheap kitchen counter-top microwave will kill 'em pretty easily, too, since they are rather fragile devices.
kurt1305
Member
I think they are designed to help those with large inventories track maintenance. HK puts them in several of their models IIRC.
USAF_Vet
Member
As said, I make my living in inventory control. RFID tags typically are included in easy to reach but internal places. Friend of mine had a crossman 1911 CO2 pistol for years. When it broke, it made it's way to my stepson, who just wanted it as a toy. I took it apart to take the guts out, and lo and behold, I found an RFID tag inside the grips. Not a big deal. The chips aren't going to have critical information programed into them. If someone pings you with an RFID scanner, odds are unless they have the codes Chippa will use, all they will know if that you have something with an RFID chip. They will not know you have a Chippa Rhino, serial # XXXXX, manufactured xx/xx/xxxx, distributed to XXX and sold to XXX. RFID chips are mass produced and preprogramed with a scarcity of trival information for those who are not on the product line.
Tin foil hats indeed.
Tin foil hats indeed.
Bozwell
Member
Doesn't the "slippery slope" argument ever get old? If I eat half a cookie this afternoon, I could develop an eating disorder, and in 6 months be eating 2 boxes of cookies a day. In 2 years, I could be dead from a heart attack due to my cookie addiction. I went over the speed limit on one road this morning on the way to work. If I keep speeding more and more and more, I could lose my license in a year or die in a wreck caused by reckless driving.
Or... I could occasionally eat a cookie and not suffer from it. Likewise, I could speed where it's safe and at worst get the occasional ticket. Point being, you don't know, and the fact that one thing happened does not mean that it will continue to happen again and again in the future at an ever increasing rate. My $0.02, but repeating this weak argument over and over just hurts the credibility of all firearm supporters.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that RFID tags are a good idea or even that Chiappa is making the right move. I'm just saying that just because you give an inch, it does not mean you will have to give a mile in the future.
If you don't like it, don't buy it, and let Chiappa decide whether their RFID tags are worth it.
CoRoMo
Member
This answers my question. Thanks.
What's shocking is the level of chatter on the internet about this specific story. Google around and all you get is gun forums and survival forums talking it up. I couldn't even locate a true press release from Chiappa as is being claimed. I'm sure it's true, but all you get when you search around are the hysterical discussions.
481
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Kinda curious....where are they mounting them in the HKs?
USAF_Vet
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Also worth noting, is that unless the RFID scanner is scanning on the appropriate frequency, the scanner won't ping anything at all. The RFID chip only bounces back a signal if it receives the correct frequency.
N003k
Member
Also keep in mind how many other things you probably own with RFID tags on them.
I work at JCPenney personally, and soon EVERYTHING we sell will have an RFID tag attached for inventory tracking and floor restocking ease. I'm not quite sure where they intend to place them on any given item, but I'd guess many will be on the product itself, rather than packaging or a removable tag. So, even if they DID go around scanning for RFID chips...they might not know if they're picking up your shirt, shoes, belt, or gun.
I work at JCPenney personally, and soon EVERYTHING we sell will have an RFID tag attached for inventory tracking and floor restocking ease. I'm not quite sure where they intend to place them on any given item, but I'd guess many will be on the product itself, rather than packaging or a removable tag. So, even if they DID go around scanning for RFID chips...they might not know if they're picking up your shirt, shoes, belt, or gun.
CoRoMo
Member
Like running a VIN through Carfax.com? You could 'CarFax' a used pistol and see how many times it has been back to Chiappa or the local smith. That's great. Eventually, you could get the number of times it has been bought and sold through FFLs because I'm sure they will soon be required to scan all used trades and such.
481
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Thanks, Cam.
fyurstarter
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I'm sure that the idea of posted speed limits and radar guns would have seemed absolutely ridiculous to the folks purchasing Model A Fords back when they were new. The real issue is that if you really feel like the government and government officials would misuse a potentially intrusive technology like RFID to oppress your rights, then it's time to start taking care of the root issue and vote to get more honest politicians, campaign for honest politicians, and hold your officials accountable for their words and actions.
I don't think the RFID chip embedded in a firearm is a good idea and looking at the long term perspective....could be potentially harmful to the privacy rights of firearms owners, BUT with dishonest folks....if it's not RFID it'll be another concept or another policy that takes the place of RFID.
I don't think the RFID chip embedded in a firearm is a good idea and looking at the long term perspective....could be potentially harmful to the privacy rights of firearms owners, BUT with dishonest folks....if it's not RFID it'll be another concept or another policy that takes the place of RFID.
FROGO207
Member
The only thing that would cause great worry would be giving the ATF access to the database/specs of production runs. WalMart and all use RFID tags to stop theft on $5 and $10 items that are popular. There are so many items out there now with them that I would think that the stream of numbers when one scans around would only confuse the crap out of someone. Also they can be disabled with a small magnetic field so what's the need for tinfoil hats anyway just go and buy an electromagnet. Problem solved.
CoRoMo
Member
These are the things that trigger the theft alarm at the entrance of large retail stores, right?
Zundfolge
Member
Too late.
If you own a car manufactured in the last decade you likely have dozens if not hundreds of RFID tags all over your car. Same thing goes for kitchen appliances.
If you're worried that Chiappa will give the folk in DC ideas well I hate to break it to you but they already HAD these ideas LONG ago.
This isn't the same thing as locks or "user id" technology put on the gun by government pressure. This is simply modern industrial inventory control.
M-Cameron said:
The big deal is not that person, but the businesses that installs them in doorways, throughout buildings, and can read them.
Concealed won't mean concealed when everyone knows who has firearms because they learn how to use the RFID readers already set up to see who is carrying guns.
You think you can carry in most businesses now, unless asked to leave, just wait until they know you are carrying concealed because your RFID tells them.
The stronger the RFID signal used, the further away they can be read, generally the FCC has limitations on strength of such products, but you could certainly have special law enforcement exemptions with power levels to scan an entire home for example in the future.
Directional antennas can also read them from further away with less power.
M-Cameron said:
Until it becomes a standard, and the standard results in laws against removal.
A serial number was just a way for manufacturers to keep track of their own products originally too.
Then serial numbers, originally just a method of the manufacturer keeping track of their own product, became mandatory, and a crime to remove.
The Bradys and antis could be asking 'Why would anyone need to disable their RFID, scratch off a serial number, or make it harder to keep track of such firearms unless they have something to hide.'
CoRoMo said:
No these are things that you can implant into a pet, child, etc that can be read any time in the future, like if the pet or child gets lost they can scan it with a small device at a shelter or vet. They are essentially a serial number that can be read remotely, and even secretly with a radio frequency.
Originally they were used more as just a bar code to keep track of inventory, but new purposes are becoming widespread.
More and more places are installing them for a variety of purposes throughout buildings.
For example they have started putting them in some things like credit cards and putting readers within individual isles in stores that record how long the person it there and that the person walked by. This allows the business to tell where specific people go, and where they are spending their time.
The business can then know their market, what they are doing, and better adjust themselves to sell more products to the consumer.
They can keep track of which businesses different people go into, who went past different readers or remained in range for how long, who passed wherever they decide to put the readers or install them. The readers are not even noticed, because they can and are put inside anything, or built into things.
That is how some corporations have begun to use them, they of course can be used in even more devious ways.
They also use them for automated toll booths, gas payments, and similar things, keeping track of anytime the RFID chip goes by.
For example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_toll_collection
These readers are already being placed for purposes as I explained above, and anyone can use that existing infrastructure to track people or items that also have RFID tags in them for other purposes as well.
The RFID chips don't need a power source or a battery and last indefinitely, the reader provides the power in the radio signal.
I could go into additional examples but don't want to make the post too long.
Once it becomes standard it becomes harder to fight, then some politicians pass a bill making it a crime not to have them or to remove them, no different than serial numbers. (However serial numbers cannot be read remotely.)
As well as laws improving on them, like law requiring firearm ID tags to have certain specific information about the firearm in them if not already included, or an industry standard format.
At that point it is an uphill battle, how hard do you think it would be to remove the serial number requirement today?
The big deal is not that person, but the businesses that installs them in doorways, throughout buildings, and can read them.
Concealed won't mean concealed when everyone knows who has firearms because they learn how to use the RFID readers already set up to see who is carrying guns.
You think you can carry in most businesses now, unless asked to leave, just wait until they know you are carrying concealed because your RFID tells them.
The stronger the RFID signal used, the further away they can be read, generally the FCC has limitations on strength of such products, but you could certainly have special law enforcement exemptions with power levels to scan an entire home for example in the future.
Directional antennas can also read them from further away with less power.
M-Cameron said:
Until it becomes a standard, and the standard results in laws against removal.
A serial number was just a way for manufacturers to keep track of their own products originally too.
Then serial numbers, originally just a method of the manufacturer keeping track of their own product, became mandatory, and a crime to remove.
The Bradys and antis could be asking 'Why would anyone need to disable their RFID, scratch off a serial number, or make it harder to keep track of such firearms unless they have something to hide.'
CoRoMo said:
No these are things that you can implant into a pet, child, etc that can be read any time in the future, like if the pet or child gets lost they can scan it with a small device at a shelter or vet. They are essentially a serial number that can be read remotely, and even secretly with a radio frequency.
Originally they were used more as just a bar code to keep track of inventory, but new purposes are becoming widespread.
More and more places are installing them for a variety of purposes throughout buildings.
For example they have started putting them in some things like credit cards and putting readers within individual isles in stores that record how long the person it there and that the person walked by. This allows the business to tell where specific people go, and where they are spending their time.
The business can then know their market, what they are doing, and better adjust themselves to sell more products to the consumer.
They can keep track of which businesses different people go into, who went past different readers or remained in range for how long, who passed wherever they decide to put the readers or install them. The readers are not even noticed, because they can and are put inside anything, or built into things.
That is how some corporations have begun to use them, they of course can be used in even more devious ways.
They also use them for automated toll booths, gas payments, and similar things, keeping track of anytime the RFID chip goes by.
For example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_toll_collection
These readers are already being placed for purposes as I explained above, and anyone can use that existing infrastructure to track people or items that also have RFID tags in them for other purposes as well.
The RFID chips don't need a power source or a battery and last indefinitely, the reader provides the power in the radio signal.
I could go into additional examples but don't want to make the post too long.
Exactly, you can stop it when it is new, don't buy their products, make the industry choose not to follow that route.
Once it becomes standard it becomes harder to fight, then some politicians pass a bill making it a crime not to have them or to remove them, no different than serial numbers. (However serial numbers cannot be read remotely.)
As well as laws improving on them, like law requiring firearm ID tags to have certain specific information about the firearm in them if not already included, or an industry standard format.
At that point it is an uphill battle, how hard do you think it would be to remove the serial number requirement today?
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Dnaltrop
Member
Inventory control is for the manufacturer, to the point of sale. It is NOT a permanent feature that enhances the functioning of a given sidearm.
I don't need a scanner to know what guns I own.
While each RFID does operate on it's own frequency, it's not hard to modulate your output to find whatever is near. Once you know those frequencies, the Serial number you get back on that specific frequency, even if it's a string of numbers, gives it's identity by reacting on that frequency itself.
If folks don't see the issue with a microchip that can be keyed to broadcast your possessions to anyone with the tools, do you also have no problem with the elimination of a per-gallon gas tax, and the introduction of small GPS that tracks your travels to report back to the state for tax purposes?
I promise the database, your travels, the elapsed time will never eventually be used to enforce speeding tickets.
I don't need a scanner to know what guns I own.
While each RFID does operate on it's own frequency, it's not hard to modulate your output to find whatever is near. Once you know those frequencies, the Serial number you get back on that specific frequency, even if it's a string of numbers, gives it's identity by reacting on that frequency itself.
If folks don't see the issue with a microchip that can be keyed to broadcast your possessions to anyone with the tools, do you also have no problem with the elimination of a per-gallon gas tax, and the introduction of small GPS that tracks your travels to report back to the state for tax purposes?
I promise the database, your travels, the elapsed time will never eventually be used to enforce speeding tickets.
For all you who are justifying this and thinking it's "no big deal"....ARE YOU ALL INSANE?
This tech is already used for cars on toll roads.....If it can be used to check your vehicle doing 50mph then why couldn't it be used to track which vehicles have firearms? This is a good idea for production facilities but horrible for gun owners.... It would only take one extra step to associate you with your RFID weapon.
As some of you are so proud to point out, the tech is already everywhere....very simple to cross over to complete control and tracking of every firearm everywhere............
This tech is already used for cars on toll roads.....If it can be used to check your vehicle doing 50mph then why couldn't it be used to track which vehicles have firearms? This is a good idea for production facilities but horrible for gun owners.... It would only take one extra step to associate you with your RFID weapon.
As some of you are so proud to point out, the tech is already everywhere....very simple to cross over to complete control and tracking of every firearm everywhere............
FIVETWOSEVEN
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I think the prices of my guns would go up if sold with the bold words: PRE-RFID!
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