New Home Defense Choice?

I would say the 870 would be the way to go with the above mentioned guns. With the concern of over penetration myself I load my 870 with two #4 birdshots, two #4 buck shots and the last shell in the tube is a 00buck. You really don't have to worry about over penetration with the #4 bird and buck but if the bg is still not convinced you mean buisness by that point, you still have a 00 buck to finish em off.

Probably one of the handguns, you might look into some of the newer frangible rounds that have been hitting the market in the last year or two to see if there are any that will work for HD.

Your worried about over penetration...

and your seriously considering a lightweight fast traveling rifle round?!?


YOUR situation is the same as 3/4 of most others living quarters. Do your research. There are thousands of threads on here asking this exact question on the best HD weapon, and all over the net. Bassically it's up to you what you wanna use. A shotty with Buck Shot or Pistol with HP's. It's not a hard choice. Bag a Solid Pistol or Shotty, and some Solid ammo. And your GTG....

I didn't vote because I'd choose something other than your listed options. In a town-home I'd opt for 20ga with 2 rounds of plated BB or steel shot followed by #4 low recoil buckshot.

Your worried about over penetration...

and your seriously considering a lightweight fast traveling rifle round?!?

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Uhhhh Yeah and? Considering there have been many tests proving the 55gr from a .223 basically blows up in drywall I would say it is a perfect choice as far as over penetration is concerned. Both the .45 and 9mm gold dot rounds go through drywall like butter.

Justin actually hit the nail square on the head with the Frangible rounds. They are fantastic at stopping an intruder right in his tracks. Also, do not underestimate the power of #4 bird shot at home defense close ranges. It is extremely lethal at close range. The #4 buck would put the slam down at the other end of the hallway but if your townhouse is like most others, the bird shot would suffice.

Freedom_fighter_in_IL said:

Uhhhh Yeah and? Considering there have been many tests proving the 55gr from a .223 basically blows up in drywall I would say it is a perfect choice as far as over penetration is concerned. Both the .45 and 9mm gold dot rounds go through drywall like butter.

Justin actually hit the nail square on the head with the Frangible rounds. They are fantastic at stopping an intruder right in his tracks. Also, do not underestimate the power of #4 bird shot at home defense close ranges. It is extremely lethal at close range. The #4 buck would put the slam down at the other end of the hallway but if your townhouse is like most others, the bird shot would suffice.

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Overseas, out of the trillions of rounds I've seen shot thru walls and barriers.. I very seldom every see one NOT go thru it with ease...

Fatter and slower moving pistol rounds, completely the opposite.
I thought this was common sense. It's also been thought how fragmentable rounds not always having enough power to penatrate deep enough into the human body to hit vitals..

The 870 would be the way to go with shared walls, but I would back off the #00.... If #6 or #7 shot wont stop em at close quarters.... you are in trouble anyways.

Your worried about over penetration...

and your seriously considering a lightweight fast traveling rifle round?

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It's actually an excellent choice. 5.56, particularly in HP or SP form, poses LESS of an overpenetration risk than slow velocity handgun rounds. That may seem counter-intuitive, but a quick perusal of threads on the 5.56 ballistics will confirm it, as will a google for ballistics tests. LOTS of tests have been done on this round. Handgun bullets are moving much more slowly and even in HP configuration they don't have the same explosive impact that a 5.56 projectile can have. They stay together in one piece, retain velocity and tend to punch right through modern interior and even exterior walls.

Ironically, the only advantage in 3rd party risk of handguns is their poor performance at longer range. So they're possibly better OUTSIDE, where a stray handgun round will fall to ground while a stray 5.56 will keep cooking for miles. But this possible advantage is far outweighed by the much greater accuracy you can achieve with a carbine or rifle over a handgun. Esp. when you are under lots of stress.

Overseas, out of the trillions of rounds I've seen shot thru walls and barriers.. I very seldom every see one NOT go thru it with ease...

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Not too many HP or SP rounds in use by the military. Black tip and 62 grainers are in wide spread use. Neither of those are particularly suitable for home defense. Do some searches and you'll see the reams of data on this.

The caveat on this, and on all such considerations, is that ANY PROJECTILE with the power to kill has the power to kill someone you don't intend to kill. There is no SAFE way to fire at an armed intruder. The act is fraught with risks, and absolutely can kill people. Your ears will also be damaged, as will those of the people around you. That's why this sort of thing is only done in the gravest extreme. We can try to reduce risks of stray rounds by selecting a platform that will work well with the fewest shots. And we need to select bullet types which will both stop the attack fast and not pose an inordinate risk to others. But there is NO WAY to remove the risk entirely. Shooting at someone who is trying to kill you is an inherently unsafe act. It's done because there's no alternative.

If you are buying just for HD it dosen't seem to be much of a decision to make although the double 00 will have some pretty healthy penetration at HD ranges. My 870HD will be my first choice go to for an HD situation.

I didn't vote. The truth is that any of those guns will penetrate walls. I would use whatever weapon you feel that you can make accurate hits with. If you make an accurate hit on an intruder, (I pray that you never have to) it will lessen the chance of the round(s) over penetrating the wall behind the intruder. Again, shot placement rules.

You should really read the Box O' Truth it's an eye opener about wall penetration.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/theboxotruth.htm

I'm with jon86.

Stick to defensive guns with proper loads. Selecting some pathetic round or Bird shot load (which is for birds incidentally) will only make your primary job less effective. IF you hit properly the chances of over penetration are a much less secondary concern.

I'd use that XD45 Tactical with out concern so long as you are proficient with it.

12 gauge buckshot.

I used #4, 2 3/4" mag when I was in an apartment. 34 pellets, lower velocity than the non mag load but 7 more pellets. I would consider a 00 buck load to be reasonable as well.

I answered based on the most recent post. Being able to operate a phone, grab your kids, etc., is a big advantage when you can't just lock the door and wait for the cavalry.

For only overpenteration protection, the .223 is the way to go, I hear. Based on what you wrote, .45ACP with JHP.

i voted for the 12ga and 00 buck however i would stack rounds starting with heavyshot bb or bbb followed by #4 buck then the 00 buck. i cant imagine anybody absorbing any 12ga round at 20ft and continuing on and i believe the bb would be more than adaquate at hd ranges.

Mr.Blue said:

Unfortunately, I don't trust the frangible rounds or bird shot. I have to have confidence in the defensive round.

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Totally agree here.

First off, basically anything that will do the job will go through thin walls. Just know that. 00 buck can overpenetrate, as can the .45 and 9mm. Those are all heavy loads with lots of momentum. What you need is a lot of kinetic energy. Light and fast. But were I to go with a handgun, I'd just use either of those, but I'd use a 115gr. in the 9mm, I'd use a Winchester +P+ because I have them, or the 200gr. Gold Dot in the .45. It opens up so big I can't imagine it having much energy left if it did overpenetrate. For what it's worth, I keep my carry pistol next to the bed too, either a .40 or 10mm. But I just like to keep it handy, I have something else for HD.

My vote is with the M4. Mine is a military grade rifle, Noveske lower and all mil spec parts, with an LMT 14.5" bbl. upper pinned with an AAC flash hider for a suppressor (I don't use it for HD though). I just built it and it shoots great, so I'm kind of proud of it if you can't tell. Anyway, this makes for a nice, light, short and easy handling rifle that is accurate, fast, and low recoil. Feels nice to me since it is a copy of an army issue rifle, KAC rail, broomhandle, Surefire light, and ACOG reflex sight, just like I had in the army but with a Geissele 3gun trigger instead of a burst trigger (also no ACOG scope or bipod, don't need it). It never let me down and it just feels right in my hands. I've done so many shoot houses and clearing drills, used one, carried one, and shot one so much, that using anything esle would be awkward. Also, using a reflex sight on a short rifle like this is super accurate at close range, it shoots fast, it is almost like cheating. A shotgun is a good HD weapon, but it has a lot of recoil, slow to bear and shoot, it is the reason our entry teams didn't use shotguns except to breach. The M4 was the preferred tool for CQB, house to house. Why would you choose anything else for your own house?

I don't have shared walls like you do, my neighbor is kind of close, but we have a lot of trees between us too, as well as an outbuilding connected to a carport --the round has to go through a lot to be a menace, in other words. He uses a full length AR, his competition rifle, for HD. I have no worries about it at all.

The 5.56mm round will usually not overpenetrate, and if it does, it is usually fragmented. The high velocity lower weight rounds just come apart. The 55gr. XM193 is a good load for HD. The M855 is too, but the penetrator in it usually doesn't disintegrate like the rest of the bullet does in soft tissue, so it might keep going, they do the darndest things. The Hornady 40gr. VMAX is just too light. It basically will punch a tiny hole and then liquify a baseball size or just larger wound under the skin. They say it isn't reliable enough to stop an aggressor. I'd go with the XM193 if I were you, although I use the M855 since it is cheap for me to load, I have a 1-7 twist, and I don't have the problems you have.

Even better for you would probably be a well built soft point in the 55-60gr. range, scooting along at about 3000fps. Shouldn't overpenetrate. A quick double tap will end it fast.

BTW, an M855 round has extreme difficulty, and can often not, penetrate a new cinderblock fully. It can poke a tiny hole in one side, spall the other, come apart in between, and shatter on the other side of the inside of the block without penetrating. Every now and again, one will get though, but it is usually just fragments. Two shots will break down the block though, and the rest will get through. It punches through wood like it isn't there. Bottom line, is to hit your target no matter what you get, because it will go through a regular stick and drywall wall. I've seen a 147gr. all lead 9mm bullet go all the way through a house. One end to the other! I feel the M4 does this best, low chance of overpenetrating target, low chance of missing target.

Just don't get a junk M4. LMT makes a very good rifle for a good price. The Noveske ones can't really be beat. Kind of get what you pay for.

I have them all, I would go for the AR, No thought at all, It has the capacity for whatever stumbled into your life, you can take an accurate shot if somone as a gun to a loved ones head, "depending one circumstances" and if there are 6 of them ,"i had 5" you can pick them off if you are a shooter. Screw pistols I want an accurate AR, that I can put a round in a guys eye at 50 feet,while still being in a position to ward off other unknowns who may be in the house.If you give me 6 inches between the bad guy and the captive, I will always take the shot. Otherwise you are both dead anyway.To many new shooters who don't understand that people who do this don't give a crap about you and yours.
Ever had a gun in your mouth, reality check time, if you were there you know, it's all on you.If you can't hit a watermelon "head" at 30 20 10 ft, without endangering the innocent, then get a ray gun. All this with gunfire going on, you block it out and pretend it's judt another target, last thing he expects is that you are going to kill him.Or he would have gone next door. You have a second to decide what to do, can you train yourself to make that one decision in a second, you must look at it like this, if I don't do this we are all dead, take that shot.Crews that do this fall into 2 catagories the pro's and amatures, pro's don't kill people unles that's their mission, amatures looking for the pot of gold do. Nothing to think about, train to make shots fast. If you cab't get savy enough to make these decisions, hire somone wo can.

I live in a townhouse. There's no way I'll ever fire an AR inside. Besides what it does to the bad guy, the muzzle blast would destroy my hearing and my family's hearing forever. The tactical operators who think using an AR for home defense is a good idea should try firing one indoors sometime without hearing protection on.

My shotgun is loaded and sitting in the bedroom closet but that's a weapon of last resort. I keep a 9mm in the nightstand. With an 18 round magazine, that's all I really need. I actually fired a 9mm inside my house one time and the sound of it in a small room was incredibly loud.

Practice, practice, practice. Don't freak out if someone breaks in and don't spray and pray. Put your shots on the target and don't worry about bullets going through walls.