Clones bad idea?

It depends on the brand. I know Ruger makes quality revolvers for half the price of comparable S&Ws, and the M&P and XD are (not exactly, but close to) clones of a Glock for roughly the same, if not a little bit more money.

For example Taurus makes a Berretta clone

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I really like my Taurus Beretta clone. Of course, it was made a long time ago, and what they put out now may be different.

I have an ATI C92, an exact clone of the Beretta 92 compact. It was actually manufactured using the same factory in prodcuing the original Beretta 92. I have fired many hundred rounds from it and has never had any problems. I paid $369 for it where the original Beretta would run around the $500ish. It is my "truck" gun. Will it last forever? I don't know. But so far I am liking it and do not plan to give it up.

Nobody copies the G-19, but many copy the 1911.

S&Ws, and the M&P and XD are (not exactly, but close to) clones of a Glock for roughly the same, if not a little bit more money

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I'd call that a "class of firearms", not clones. The parts are not the same as they are between Colt, Kimber, SW, Taurus, etc in the 1911.

The only similarity in the "G-class" is the materials used, ie polymer. Actions differ, bore heights differ, safeties differ, etc.

Example, the XD is striker-fired, but not DAO, while a Glock is at partial cock.

Ive heard good things about the egypyion beretta clones

KenW. said:

The only similarity in the "G-class" is the materials used, ie polymer. Actions differ, bore heights differ, safeties differ, etc.

Example, the XD is striker-fired, but not DAO, while a Glock is at partial cock.

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Actually, both the Glock and XD are striker-fired. An example of a different kind of polymer-gun action would be, say DA/SA like the Px4 or pre-set like the PT 24/7

That said, Glocks, M&Ps and XDs are most certainly not clones of each other. Ruger Vaqueros would be an example of a clone from the Colt SAA.

FadingSwordsman said:

. Ruger Vaqueros would be an example of a clone from the Colt SAA.

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Only cosmetically.

Compare this with the exploded view of a Vaquero on page 33 of the Ruger manual linked below:

A truer clone of the Colt 1873 would be the Uberti and Pietta imports that come from Italy.

Robinkevin, some folks like the Ruger name and updated inner workings. Others, like myself, prefer to have the inner workings as faithful to the old original Colt as possible. And there's no doubt that the manual of arms for loading and unloading is quite different with the two.

I like the historical connection that I have to go to half cock to rotate the cylinder vs just flip the linked loading gate. And I like the distinct 4 clicks of the hammer as it goes to full cock just like the original. There's no doubt that the Ruger is a fine firearm. I just prefer the historical connection to doing it the old way.

robinkevin said:

Still very clear it was design from the Colt SAA...

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Only cosmetically. Internally it's still a Blackhawk.

robinkevin said:

They simply updated some of the design but the basics are still there.

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Like what?


The lockwork and construction are completely different.

bcrider, maybe you should aquire an old model blackhawk (unconverted). half cock loading and 4 clicks.

murf

Technically, the Taurus PT-92 isn't a clone since it was originally produced when Beretta owned the factory.

In general, a pure clone will be less reliable than the parent design because the engineer who clones or reverse engineers the original design won't know precisely what nominal dimensions or tolerances the original parts were designed with nor will the builders of a clone have the benefit of all the lessons learned and tweaks made during the development and testing phase of an original design.

FadingSwordsman said:

Actually, both the Glock and XD are striker-fired.

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...but operate completely differently. Actuating the trigger on a Glock finishes cocking the striker and releases it. The striker on an XD is fully cocked by slide reciprocation and pulling the trigger only releases it.

That is why XDs are in the ESP class and Glocks are SSP in IDPA.

gearhead said:

In general, a pure clone will be less reliable than the parent design because the engineer who clones or reverse engineers the original design won't know precisely what nominal dimensions or tolerances the original parts were designed with nor will the builders of a clone have the benefit of all the lessons learned and tweaks made during the development and testing phase of an original design.

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That might be right where the clone is made via reverse-engineering. But a clone made with the benefit of access to engineering materials... no particular reason to expect that to be less reliable.

robinkevin said:

Seen a lot of High Power and Sig clones...

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Besides the unavailable Norinco NP-22 what Sig clones are you talking about?

bcrider, maybe you should aquire an old model blackhawk (unconverted). half cock loading and 4 clicks.

murf

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I only "worry" about the historical authenticity with my CAS revolvers. And those are Pietta. I'm very happy with them after two years of lots of shooting in matches and practice. And as I say I quite enjoy the more traditional manual of arms with them.

I recently got a new model SBH in .44Mag and with some home made fatter grips to work with my oversize bear paw hands I could not be happier in spite of the "modern innards"

Mind you I lucked out and got an old three screw Single Six for another dose of historical authenticity which I quite like too. Got it for pretty much a song too since it came with just the .22LR cylinder and has some "patina". Nice little shooter that I really enjoy.

One good clone

I believe that my FEG clone of a BHP is one of the best examples of a clone that, for all practical purposes (reliability, accuracy, longevity) is the equal of the original. I believe it only falls short of an original BHP in fit and finish. And since there are so many BHPs, produced in different countries, my FEG may even be superior to some of 'em.

I think some people are being too loose with their definitions of "clones".

Ruger doesn't clone S&W on their double-actions nor Colt on their single-actions. They're completely different designs.

All striker-fired polymer guns are not Glock clones. I wouldn't even count the Ruger LCP as a Kel-tec clone. To be a clone the design and look needs to be basically a copy with very minimal changes - usually close enough that some (or even all) parts will interchange between the two models.

FEG and FM make Hi-Power clones.
Taurus makes S&W revolver clones, and Beretta 92 clones.
Armscor makes Colt D/A revolver clones.
Tanfoglio makes CZ clones.
ATI imports Turkish made Beretta 92 and Cougar clones.
A gaggle of people make 1911 clones.

You get the idea . . .

As to avoiding them - no reason not to from the functionality standpoint. Most of the designs being cloned are well known. Once they fall out of patent, anyone can make copies of them. At that point all that really matters is the manufacturing competency of the shop itself. If they can build pistols right, then they can build any design they want.

Put it this way - the US GOVERNMENT trusted "clones" extensively during various world wars. The 1917 Enfield was manufactured as necessary by Remington, Winchester, and (most commonly) by Eddystone. Various other guns were even made by IBM (yes, THAT IBM) and Smith Corona, who were more famous for typewriters than guns. More guns were made by Singer (the sewing machine company). It's all in trusting the manufacturing capacity of the plant. None of those companies designed those guns - they just made them. If they are competent then they can execute any design you give them.

Ditto on the FEG Hi-Power. Not cloned in the sense of fully interchangable but nice.

I got this clone of my C Z P-01 on closeout for $287. It's a Sarsilmaz from Turkey but for the price I couldn't pass it up. So far so good, great gun shoots as good as my C Z but half the price. Now as for as parts who knows but I wasn't out a lot on the front end. Great range gun and that's what I got it for.

robinkevin said:

ASTRA A-100

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No longer produced, ASTRA went out of business and was reformed.
http://www.astra-arms.ch/

robinkevin said:

Dlask DAC-394

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No longer manufactured.

robinkevin said:

EAA Zastava EZ9

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Not even a Sig clone. While it looks like a Sig, is closer to being a Walther P.88.

robinkevin said:

EDIT: The company that made the HS2000 now Springfield XD did make a model HS 95 another SIG clone (No longer in production).

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Well there you go.

Clones are fine.... but, I've discovered, true clones are actually somewhat rare. Most companies that create a "clone" end of tweaking the design into something a fair amount different from the original.

(There are exceptions, think NORINCO.... of course they can't be imported to the US though)