Preemptive Legal Defense questions

Status
Not open for further replies.
A

AdamJacksom

Member
Joined
Oct 17, 2011
Messages
15
I have read many books and articles regarding CCW-ing tactics,training, implementation, legal justification of force, etc. Often, albeit rarely, I will see mention of acquiring a retainer for a lawyer to use in the event of a self defense shooting.
However, I cannot find any specific sources that deal primarily with this issue. Having had problems in the past with differing laws while crossing state borders, I know first hand how the police can look at gun ownership and such.
I also know many police officers, as well as Deputies who look at such issues with greatly varying views.
In some of my reading, I have come across differing opinions on what actions to take post-self defense shooting. For example, Farnham states that if one is involved in a shooting at their house, as soon as the shooting is over, and is tactically safe to do so, one should gather themselves and family, and leave the house and drive to a neutral area, such as a well lit, video camera-Ed parking lot. Then one would call 911 and state their there has been a shooting at x-home address and that you are in such and such parking lot and legally armed. He then talks about refusing to answer any questions regarding the shooting, who was involved, who actually pulled the trigger, etc. until you have had legal council and are in the presence of your lawyer.
I know an individual very closely who used a pistol in self defense of her life, and child's life, against an estranged, documented abuser husband. Because of her phrasing in talking to the police post-shooting, she now is serving 25 years.
I also know police who's protocol in dealing with the report of a self defense shooting includes "asking" for the gun used to confiscate and place in records as evidence.
After, having been in a few close calls regarding using my weapon in self defense, the one greatest area of mystery and nagging thoughts revolve around post-shooting actions.
My questions are thus, and any insight or help would be appreciated:
1. Do I have to turn over my weapon post-shooting? Police officer friends have told me that it is protocol to ask for it, and if the individual refuses they are told to respond with the threat of getting a warrant for the weapon. Is this a bluff? I ask. They respond with the acknowledgement that the owner is usually very willing to turn the weapon over and they have never actually had to call in and request a warrant.

2. Are there any sources; books, articles, etc regarding legal advice to the armed citizen? The only sources I can find are advertisements to the firearm defense legal networks.

I may have more ?s but my wife is hounding me to leave for the gazillionth Christmas party of the season.

Thanks in advance.

SjF
 
Do I have to turn over my weapon post-shooting?
Click to expand...
Probably, but not necessarily. Depends on how black and white the officer considers the self-defense shooting. If it's a very clear cut case, he probably won't ask for the firearm. If he doubts the legitimacy of the self-defense claim, he'll likely take it.

Is this a bluff?
Click to expand...
I doubt it. Not if the officer reasonably believes, based on the circumstances, the gun might be important evidence in a case against you.

Are there any sources; books, articles, etc regarding legal advice to the armed citizen?
Click to expand...
Read up on anything written by Massad Ayoob.
 
Varied advice

You are going to get 10 answers from 5 people. My advice is spend a small amount of money and time locate a lawyer experienced in criminal law and if possible self defense shootings. Follow his/her advice and keep his/her phone number handy.
 
The officer most certainly does have legal authority to confiscate the firearm used in a shooting. I guarantee you that if you refuse to voluntarily hand it over, it will be a simple matter for them to arrest you for homicide, take your firearm using whatever force is necessary to do so because they will be making a custodial arrest, and let the courts sort it out.

Unless you were in further fear of a violent criminal act, I would not leave the scene. That will certainly raise additional suspicion.

Depending on the laws in your state, I would be very careful what you say to police without a lawyer present.
 
Some of the best advice I've read is to ask to be taken to a hospital post shooting/if they ask if you need medical assistance, odds are either way you'll need psychological help after a shooting (Or is it psychiatric, honestly, I can never remember the difference.) So you're probably better off doing it that way off the bat. Not to mention it'll give you time to settle down from the adrenaline rush you're probably feeling and start piecing things together, along with getting a lawyer.
 
1. Plan on it. There was just a shooting. If the police took your word for what happened, how good are they? They will at the very least need to test the gun to ensure that your story of who shot at whom matches up.

2. Read "In the Gravest Extreme" by Massad F. Ayoob.
 
I am really amazed (or amused) by the idea from Old West movies that the sheriff looks at the BG's body, declares it a "good shoot" and buys the shooter a drink. Hell, it wasn't even that way in the real Old West!

This kind of thread always seems to deteriorate into utter nonsense or into more silly blather about whether this or that caliber has enough penetration. Believe me, if you do shoot and kill someone in self defense, that will be the least of your worries. And if you talk to the cops the way some folks talk here about carrying the best load for killing someone, you will be on your way to life in prison quicker than you can say "gold dot."

The advice to leave the scene, drive to a parking lot and then call the police is really off the wall, even if you can legally carry the gun off your property, which you can't without a CCW. And refusing to surrender your gun is pretty bad, also. The first duty of the cop is to secure the scene and prevent any further shooting, and that means making sure all the guns involved are secured, including the one in the hands of Mr. Innocent Homeowner.

And the idea (expressed on another site) that you just explain to the first cop that it was self defense, tuck the gun back in your pocket and walk away is so far off the mark that I can't even comment.

If you kill or wound a person, even in your home, you will probably be arrested. Outside your home, it is a dead certainty, CCW or no CCW.* You better have the phone number of that lawyer memorized (no, they don't let you keep your iPad, notebook, PDA, etc. when you are arrested) and have some idea of where you can get the werewithal to put up bail (the 10% non-refundable bondsman's fee has to be paid before you can "walk"). $100k bond (almost a minimum in some areas in a shooting case) means that your wife or parents have to come up with ten grand or something worth that, like the deed to the house.

So lots of things to think about, folks, the whole picture, not just whether this or that round will have enough penetration or how much the bullet will expand.

*A permit to carry a weapon is a permit to carry a weapon. Period. It doesn't give you any other rights you don't have without it.

Jim
 
NOO 3K said: "Some of the best advice I've read is to ask to be taken to a hospital post shooting/if they ask if you need medical assistance, odds are either way you'll need psychological help after a shooting (Or is it psychiatric, honestly, I can never remember the difference.) So you're probably better off doing it that way off the bat. Not to mention it'll give you time to settle down from the adrenaline rush you're probably feeling and start piecing things together, along with getting a lawyer. "

Don't talk to any mental health specialist that the police know about.

I work in the medical information Network Management field. HIPPA is my speciality The HIPPA law makes it easy (despite how they tell you it protects your privacy) for them to get your records. They just put an order in front of a judge for signature to enforce the subpoena that we reject.

In that case, your only recourse is to have a lawyer atempt a 'quash' of the DA's order request. In 10 years I've seen exactly 2 successful quashes.

Yes, the police will take your gun. Unless you're 100% confident in the shooting, and in your LEO's, remain totally silent and get behind a lawyer.
 
The following is how I have any possible SD shooting planned.
I will be following my lawyers advice, which is to ID, give only the most basic info on what happened and as to the finer details, "My memory is not quite clear right now, I'm overwhelmed and I need to talk with my attorney."
I cannot stress the value of having consulted/retained the services of attorney who is very competent in such situations.
..............................................

Regardless if 100 other people are standing around talking to 911, call 911, ID yourself as the victim and say as little as possible.
"My memory is not quite clear right now, I'm overwhelmed and I need to talk with my attorney.", or follow your lawyers advice*.
Follow 911s directions as to your actions and what they want you to do, and regarding first aid to the injured (hopefully deceased) threat.

Clear your weapon and secure it, if possible set it aside in full view, do not be holding it in your hand when the police/EMS arrive.

*Call your lawyer.
*You should already have the number (business card/speed dial) of, or even better, have already consulted/retained a lawyer who is very competent with such situations.
*You should already have consulted this lawyer as to what he desires you say to the police following a SD shooting.
*This is well worth the costs.

Ask witnesses to stay and give statements.

As soon as Police arrive, announce yourself, make it very clear you are the victim/shooter, and you are going to to press charges/file a complaint, etc.
Have ID/CCW out and ready.
Make sure they know where your weapon is, follow their directions, do not argue if they wish to arrest you, be very calm/polite/compliant and do whatever they command, except answer detailed questions without your attorney.
Do not answer any questions other than to ID yourself, or divulge only what your attorney has advised*.
"My memory is not quite clear right now, I'm overwhelmed and I need to talk with my attorney.", or follow your lawyers advice*.
...................................................

Know your local/state laws.
Know the circumstances in which deadly force is authorized.
Know what is behind you target.
Know the right answers to the key questions,

"My and/or someone else's life/limb was in mortal danger."
"I shot to stop the threat."
"My memory is not quite clear right now, I'm overwhelmed and I need to talk with my attorney."
..................................................

So much more, but my MTS is acting up.
 
NavyLCDR said:
The officer most certainly does have legal authority to confiscate the firearm used in a shooting. I guarantee you that if you refuse to voluntarily hand it over, it will be a simple matter for them to arrest you for homicide, take your firearm using whatever force is necessary to do so because they will be making a custodial arrest, and let the courts sort it out.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure what state the OP is in. In Florida, the law would seem to preclude you from being arrested in a self-defense shooting. Granted that this law isn't particularly well worded, and courts are still trying to sort out how to apply it, but it's pretty clear that the legislature intended that someone who defends himself would not be arrested, prosecuted, sued, etc.

Florida statute 776.032 reads, in part (emphasis added),


(1) A person who uses force as permitted in s. 776.012, s. 776.013, or s. 776.031 is justified in using such force and is immune from criminal prosecution and civil action for the use of such force, unless the person against whom force was used is a law enforcement officer, as defined in s. 943.10(14), who was acting in the performance of his or her official duties and the officer identified himself or herself in accordance with any applicable law or the person using force knew or reasonably should have known that the person was a law enforcement officer. As used in this subsection, the term “criminal prosecution” includes arresting, detaining in custody, and charging or prosecuting the defendant.


This isn't to say there might not be other means for the officer to take the gun, but it appears arrest isn't an option here.
 
IMHO: As alluded to in the OP...state law is different in every state...know your state law. State here is the BG, this is what happend (he pulled a knife, it is there, he pulled a gun..it is there, he broke into my house etc) I am the victim.

Beyond that stuff, I would let the police officer do his thing and keep quiet. Every state law is different, but remember even Bernard Goetz was not convicted of shooting his assailants...he was tried but not convicted. Unfortunately, He was convicted of possesing an unregistered firearm in NYC though.
 
Having had problems in the past with differing laws while crossing state borders...
Click to expand...

So you failed to follow the laws in different states correctly?

The concept of 'taking your law with you' went out back in the middle ages.

You obey the law of the locality you are in.

If you do not like their law, do not go.
 
In Florida, the law would seem to preclude you from being arrested in a self-defense shooting.
Click to expand...

Dream on. The police and prosecutors will first decide if they think it's a self defense shooting, and if they think it's not, you will be arrested and tried. Once in court, you may be able to show that the shooting is covered by the justifiable self defense law, and if so, hooray for you. But don't think that you cannot be arrested, jailed and charged for a self defense shooting.
 
Do what you do, meaning if you are a welder weld, a doctor - doctor, etc. and let the lawyers do what they do - deal with your legal problems and issues. You will have made enough money to retain one since you've been doing what you do to pay for one.


Mark, esquire
 
After reading this thread, it seems pretty clear that it's a bad trip to be involved in a self-defense shooting. The lesson seems to be to avoid being in this situation at all costs. Once that is said, the wisdom of obtaining a concealed carry license and actually carrying outside the home is also called into question. Since you can't actually use the weapon without getting into a whole bunch of legal trouble, what's the point? This reminds me of the old Cold War nuclear rationale -- a weapons system that's never meant to be used, and if used, a total failure in regard to its purpose.

Maybe it's enough to just display the weapon (without shooting) and hope that the burglar/mugger/rapist/other bad guy decides to flee (or surrender) rather than test you. This is a deterrent effect, just like the nuclear deterrent Mutually Assured Destruction (MAD) doctrine. Maybe to make sure you don't actually shoot by mistake, you should keep the weapon unloaded. Just sayin'.
 
AlexanderA said:
After reading this thread, it seems pretty clear that it's a bad trip to be involved in a self-defense shooting. The lesson seems to be to avoid being in this situation at all costs. Once that is said, the wisdom of obtaining a concealed carry license and actually carrying outside the home is also called into question. Since you can't actually use the weapon without getting into a whole bunch of legal trouble, what's the point? This reminds me of the old Cold War nuclear rationale -- a weapons system that's never meant to be used, and if used, a total failure in regard to its purpose.

Maybe it's enough to just display the weapon (without shooting) and hope that the burglar/mugger/rapist/other bad guy decides to flee (or surrender) rather than test you. This is a deterrent effect, just like the nuclear deterrent Mutually Assured Destruction (MAD) doctrine. Maybe to make sure you don't actually shoot by mistake, you should keep the weapon unloaded. Just sayin'.
Click to expand...
Screw the latter part of your statement, that part about going unloaded.
'Better to be tried by twelve, than carried by six.'
Heck yeah there is deterrent! Happens all the time, more stories of successful deterrence than of actual SD shootings.
Just better know how your City, County & State laws work on what is considered Brandishing and/or Menacing.


As to the former,
make double danged sure of your SD Rights, the laws governing what is a Justified SD shooting and live in a State with an excellent Castle Doctrine/Stand Your Ground law(s).
Most of the better ones guard you from Civil Lawsuits.

Nothing can protect you from a questionable or Unjustified shooting... Except maybe copious amounts of cash and the best lawyers/pro witnesses that money can buy.
 
AlexanderA said:
After reading this thread, it seems pretty clear that it's a bad trip to be involved in a self-defense shooting. The lesson seems to be to avoid being in this situation at all costs. Once that is said, the wisdom of obtaining a concealed carry license and actually carrying outside the home is also called into question. Since you can't actually use the weapon without getting into a whole bunch of legal trouble, what's the point?
Click to expand...

The point is that no matter how diligent one is in trying to avoid places/situations that might place your life in jeopardy, sometimes there is no avoiding it. You do not have to be looking for trouble, but it can always find you. Muggings, rapes, robberies, etc. can, and do occur even in good neighborhoods in daylight. If your life is not worth defending, it is not worth living. It has been said before: better to be judged by twelve than carried by six.

AlexanderA said:
Maybe it's enough to just display the weapon (without shooting) and hope that the burglar/mugger/rapist/other bad guy decides to flee (or surrender) rather than test you. This is a deterrent effect, just like the nuclear deterrent Mutually Assured Destruction (MAD) doctrine. Maybe to make sure you don't actually shoot by mistake, you should keep the weapon unloaded. Just sayin'.
Click to expand...

Displaying a weapon MAY be a deterrent. Be very careful here, displaying a weapon can be considered "brandishing" (a criminal offense) in many (most?) jurisdictions unless the situation justifies the use of deadly force. If the use of deadly force is justified, and you present a weapon, you had better be prepared to use it. Drawing (or even carrying for that matter) a weapon with the sole thought/hope/prayer that you will not have to discharge it is a very bad plan. Again, don't carry if you are not prepared to take a life in defense of your own/another life. And carrying an unloaded weapon, well that is just silly (re-read this paragraph).
 
I understand what is being said above. I was just trying to take the "lessons" of this thread to their logical conclusion. Seems that there's a lot of legal downside even in a justified self-defense shooting.

Generally speaking, I don't feel threatened. Therefore, I see no need to carry a gun, or even to keep a gun in a ready status at home. (It's good to have the right to do so.) If I felt threatened, I would make changes in my lifestyle to be less vulnerable, in preference to going armed. Ironically, the main thing that would make me a target of a break-in/robbery would be the presence of the guns themselves. And in the couple of times I've been a victim of crime (car break-in and pickpocket-style "swarming," both overseas), having a gun wouldn't have done me any good anyway.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

F
  • Locked
Washington state suppressor use - legal in home defense?
2
Replies
28
Views
4K
Art Eatman
A
J
  • Locked
Self Defense Insurance
Replies
16
Views
1K
husbandofaromanian
H
Craig_AR
  • Locked
Legal Defense Network
Replies
1
Views
336
Yo Mama
Yo Mama
M
  • Locked
Attorneys Needed For Armed Citizens' Legal Defense Network
Replies
0
Views
395
Marty Hayes
M
Jack19
  • Locked
Gun Choices and Juries - Jail or no Jail
Replies
3
Views
716
Frank Ettin
Frank Ettin
Back
Top