I would love to believe that, would make things simpler...but CraigC among others would take you to task on the viability of a "fistful" of .32 cal. pellets penetrating deep enough to stop or slow up a committed charge ...EXCEPT at pt. BLANK range and THEN you better hope & pray for that absolutely critical "face-shot"...as anything short of that, as Kodiakbeer explained...will not do / be the end of you?
SOCOM BearBuster?
- Thread starter 16n69
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CraigC
Sixgun Nut
All I can say about buckshot is that it would be better than a swift slap with your fishing pole.
KodiakBeer
member
Are you sure you'll get a quicker follow-up vs a shotgun or lever rifle? Remember, you aren't shooting as fast as you can pull the trigger, you're shooting as fast as the gun can be brought down from recoil. Maybe there's a speed advantage or maybe there isn't. I haven't shot one.
One thing that does strike me about the Socom package is that it looks kind of "unwieldy". You know, it's got knobs and levers sticking out, generally a high mounted red dot sight, a long magazine, etc. If you haven't ducked and weaved your way through the alders and devils club of coastal Alaska, you might not appreciate that.
Still, I guess it would work, though I'd leave any sort of electronic sights at home. I don't believe they'd last a single day being beaten around in this wet climate.
I just don't see any advantage in the package. I don't believe your follow-ups would be any faster since a SG or lever gun is ready to go again by the time it comes back on target.
One thing that does strike me about the Socom package is that it looks kind of "unwieldy". You know, it's got knobs and levers sticking out, generally a high mounted red dot sight, a long magazine, etc. If you haven't ducked and weaved your way through the alders and devils club of coastal Alaska, you might not appreciate that.
Still, I guess it would work, though I'd leave any sort of electronic sights at home. I don't believe they'd last a single day being beaten around in this wet climate.
I just don't see any advantage in the package. I don't believe your follow-ups would be any faster since a SG or lever gun is ready to go again by the time it comes back on target.
Flintknapper
Member
I guess I'm a little puzzled as to why you even posted the thread...if you have your mind made up on the action "type" you want to use?
If you are satisfied with the weapons you already have...then by all means use one of them. Your shot gun...(with proper slugs) will serve you as well as anything provided you can put the rounds on target and not count on the bear "running into" a hail of bullets sent his/her way.
If you just want a SOCOM get one, but don't assume that it will be problem free just because it is on a "battle proven" AR platform.
IF you doubt that....go here and read: http://458socomforums.com/
I am Flintknapper on that forum too BTW.
I think your time would be better spent researching HOW and WHEN bear attacks occur and then consider your weapon according to that. You might also look to see what guides (in big bear country) carry for defense.
My guess is...you will not find a single AR in the bunch. But if you decide to go that route, keep the dust cover up and make that first shot count.
Good luck to you Sir,
Flint.
If you are satisfied with the weapons you already have...then by all means use one of them. Your shot gun...(with proper slugs) will serve you as well as anything provided you can put the rounds on target and not count on the bear "running into" a hail of bullets sent his/her way.
If you just want a SOCOM get one, but don't assume that it will be problem free just because it is on a "battle proven" AR platform.
IF you doubt that....go here and read: http://458socomforums.com/
I am Flintknapper on that forum too BTW.
I think your time would be better spent researching HOW and WHEN bear attacks occur and then consider your weapon according to that. You might also look to see what guides (in big bear country) carry for defense.
My guess is...you will not find a single AR in the bunch. But if you decide to go that route, keep the dust cover up and make that first shot count.
Good luck to you Sir,
Flint.
Okay, you say you want feedback from combat M4 users.
Then you seemed to assume they'd want an AR15-style rifle for bear defense.
The last time I was in Afghanistan, I was an infantryman. I absolutely believe a carbine is a better defensive choice than a shotgun for most people, when the threat is human. I already gave you my opinion about what to use defensively against bears.
It's been fairly common for hunters to find old .44 bullets embedded in the skulls of dead browns. Buckshot should only be used against very light-bodied dangerous game - think mountain lion at close range.
Then you seemed to assume they'd want an AR15-style rifle for bear defense.
The last time I was in Afghanistan, I was an infantryman. I absolutely believe a carbine is a better defensive choice than a shotgun for most people, when the threat is human. I already gave you my opinion about what to use defensively against bears.
It's been fairly common for hunters to find old .44 bullets embedded in the skulls of dead browns. Buckshot should only be used against very light-bodied dangerous game - think mountain lion at close range.
I would be willing to place a hefty wager that an aimpoint (say a T1) would last a day and then some. Considering you can submerge it up to 80 feet in water wet shouldn't be much of an issue. In terms of knocking it around:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfojMy1MWok&feature=player_embedded
Highlights including shooting it with a couple rounds of birdshot, throwing it on the ground, throwing the rifle out of a moving truck right onto the sight and running it over with a jeep. Setting an explosion off next to it (this damaged the rear glass but the dot was still on useable and scored hits at 50 yards.), 30 foot drop test, dropping it out of a helicopter (which to be fair did cause a loss of zero but did not break the sight), etc.
What exactly are you doing up there that will put it through that will break it in one day?
Hunterdad
Member
Well, apparently you aren't used to forums....at all. When you post a question, expect opinions. Opinions come from personal experience and 2nd hand knowledge. Everyone here is looking out for your best interest, if you catch an attitude with everyone that posts, you're more than welcome to find a forum that will put up with your attitude and whining.
Besides...I never doubted the fact that to kill or seriously slow doen a charging Grizzly or Brown...you need a HEAVY penetrating projectile...Just BELIEVED the data & guys that said the Brenneke BM slug would do the job in spades!
So it come down to semi-auto SG w/slugs, err. NOT just ANY slug, but the Black Magic "design" (which some guys doubt, BUT test SHOW massive tissue damage with tons of penetration... ) to a .458 cal. 400gr. bullet fired just as quick from an AR rifle?
I don't care about buying all these guns...I would anyway, regardless whether or not I was heading into bear country...just that NOW , i have an additional purpose I never had before!
Although, with this thread, I was NOT discussing the SHOTGUN/SLUG any longer...just truing to get "feedback" from .458 SOCOM or AR15 hunters...
...I challenge craigC to take his SD vs. slug (Brenneke BM slug, that is...) ARGUMENT to the owner/makers at Brenneke...([email protected] e-mail to contact Charlie Hayes...)
(as well as those agencies that have tested then extensively and adopted them to protect their officers...) I would LOVe to see the discussion between Charlie Hays, Brenneke USA & craigC...I am pretty sure Mr. Hays would set craig straight about the effectiveness of Brenneke Black Magic slugs for DG like bears, equal to cast bullet.
Just a small excerpt from extensive email between Charlie and I :
"Over the years I have found outdoor writers overall do a very good job keeping their readers advised.* Some*are very opinionated*with what they believe, some do extensive research and gather all of the facts, and then there are a few who write to meet a deadline from the Editor. There is no doubt or question a slug at long range will not*perform as well as a bullet designed for*the type of animal it is intended.*However, at a reasonable closer distance, a well designed 12 ga slug will provide better penetration, equal or possibly somewhat*better accuracy for both hunting and defense purposes. Several years ago, as the slug market began to expand, most all of the ammunition companies increased their effort to have a better performing slug.*They appeared to be more interested in attempting to prove accuracy and paying little to no attention to penetration.*As this was taking place, Brenneke USA did not believe some the the claims being made and the law of gravity was not even being considered in some of their ads.* BOA decided*at that time to invest a rather*substantial amount of money and went to one of the few ballistics experts in the industry and have some of our 12 ga *slugs compared with competitive slugs*being advertised by*the major competitors.* ...there is much more that goes into the design of all BOA slugs before they are offered for sale - - one being actual field tests done on animals the slug was designed for, including large animals found in Africa and other European countries. Before BOA markets a slug a minimum of 1 to*2 years go into actual performance....
..." I do not believe the*explanation of (SD) in the article*includes the fact that BOA adds a very expensive alloy (Antimony) to their lead to harden the lead so it will maintain its original shape and weight throughout the wound channel.*"...
..."When shooting a dangerous animal "big" is considered better.*The massive frontal area of a BOA slug, with the*designed knob on the front of the slug, opens to*almost 80 caliber immediately on impact,*retains almost all of its original shape and weight throughout the wound channel - -*is far more devastating then a much smaller bullet in diameter with far less weight finding a vital area is not what I would want to have when faced with a Grizzly, Brown, mad Moose, or any other large animal coming at me. The article refers to 10 yards distance for a slug. If this was the case I*most definitely would*want the much larger slug rather then a thin*longer*bullet taking time to hopefully finding a vital organ."...
..."The Alaska State Police, as well as*almost all other government agencies in Alaska would not place their officers or people *in a situation where they would have to dispose of a renegade bear and getting as close as 10 yards?* All of*the AK*officers and cadets are trained at their academy using BOA slugs - - and all carry them*on the job.*They also are equipped with centerfire rifles but their choice for large animal control is a*Brenneke USA*slug.*They shoot far more renegade animals in Alaska then they shoot people."...
..."One last point - - also in the article the slug comparison is being made with a 1 oz Foster slug - - 437 oz.* The BOA Heavy Field Short Magnum Green Lightning and the Special Forces Short Magnum are both 1 1/4 oz/525 grains*- - non Foster slug.* The 3 inch Black Magic 1 3/8 oz/600 grains is also not a Foster slug.
*
As I pointed out before - - what you decide to have on hand for protection is your choice - - a large caliber rifle or a shotgun with a high performance slug. If you want to shoot a Brown, Grizzly or Silver Tip at at 200 yards - - choose the rifle and make sure you have a large sized (SD) bullet to go with it." (the difference between hunting bear & defense...)
Mr. Hayes has MUCH more evidence for his slugs AT CLOSE RANGE getting the job done as well as any bullet.
However, for me the SLuG issue was settled in MY LAST THREAD...
Now I wish to LEARN, from those who KNOW about the AR .458 SOCOM ...does it hit hard enough, deep enough and is the rifles used durable enough in weather...I know they must be reliable or our military would not use them.
So it come down to semi-auto SG w/slugs, err. NOT just ANY slug, but the Black Magic "design" (which some guys doubt, BUT test SHOW massive tissue damage with tons of penetration... ) to a .458 cal. 400gr. bullet fired just as quick from an AR rifle?
I don't care about buying all these guns...I would anyway, regardless whether or not I was heading into bear country...just that NOW , i have an additional purpose I never had before!
Although, with this thread, I was NOT discussing the SHOTGUN/SLUG any longer...just truing to get "feedback" from .458 SOCOM or AR15 hunters...
...I challenge craigC to take his SD vs. slug (Brenneke BM slug, that is...) ARGUMENT to the owner/makers at Brenneke...([email protected] e-mail to contact Charlie Hayes...)
(as well as those agencies that have tested then extensively and adopted them to protect their officers...) I would LOVe to see the discussion between Charlie Hays, Brenneke USA & craigC...I am pretty sure Mr. Hays would set craig straight about the effectiveness of Brenneke Black Magic slugs for DG like bears, equal to cast bullet.
Just a small excerpt from extensive email between Charlie and I :
"Over the years I have found outdoor writers overall do a very good job keeping their readers advised.* Some*are very opinionated*with what they believe, some do extensive research and gather all of the facts, and then there are a few who write to meet a deadline from the Editor. There is no doubt or question a slug at long range will not*perform as well as a bullet designed for*the type of animal it is intended.*However, at a reasonable closer distance, a well designed 12 ga slug will provide better penetration, equal or possibly somewhat*better accuracy for both hunting and defense purposes. Several years ago, as the slug market began to expand, most all of the ammunition companies increased their effort to have a better performing slug.*They appeared to be more interested in attempting to prove accuracy and paying little to no attention to penetration.*As this was taking place, Brenneke USA did not believe some the the claims being made and the law of gravity was not even being considered in some of their ads.* BOA decided*at that time to invest a rather*substantial amount of money and went to one of the few ballistics experts in the industry and have some of our 12 ga *slugs compared with competitive slugs*being advertised by*the major competitors.* ...there is much more that goes into the design of all BOA slugs before they are offered for sale - - one being actual field tests done on animals the slug was designed for, including large animals found in Africa and other European countries. Before BOA markets a slug a minimum of 1 to*2 years go into actual performance....
..." I do not believe the*explanation of (SD) in the article*includes the fact that BOA adds a very expensive alloy (Antimony) to their lead to harden the lead so it will maintain its original shape and weight throughout the wound channel.*"...
..."When shooting a dangerous animal "big" is considered better.*The massive frontal area of a BOA slug, with the*designed knob on the front of the slug, opens to*almost 80 caliber immediately on impact,*retains almost all of its original shape and weight throughout the wound channel - -*is far more devastating then a much smaller bullet in diameter with far less weight finding a vital area is not what I would want to have when faced with a Grizzly, Brown, mad Moose, or any other large animal coming at me. The article refers to 10 yards distance for a slug. If this was the case I*most definitely would*want the much larger slug rather then a thin*longer*bullet taking time to hopefully finding a vital organ."...
..."The Alaska State Police, as well as*almost all other government agencies in Alaska would not place their officers or people *in a situation where they would have to dispose of a renegade bear and getting as close as 10 yards?* All of*the AK*officers and cadets are trained at their academy using BOA slugs - - and all carry them*on the job.*They also are equipped with centerfire rifles but their choice for large animal control is a*Brenneke USA*slug.*They shoot far more renegade animals in Alaska then they shoot people."...
..."One last point - - also in the article the slug comparison is being made with a 1 oz Foster slug - - 437 oz.* The BOA Heavy Field Short Magnum Green Lightning and the Special Forces Short Magnum are both 1 1/4 oz/525 grains*- - non Foster slug.* The 3 inch Black Magic 1 3/8 oz/600 grains is also not a Foster slug.
*
As I pointed out before - - what you decide to have on hand for protection is your choice - - a large caliber rifle or a shotgun with a high performance slug. If you want to shoot a Brown, Grizzly or Silver Tip at at 200 yards - - choose the rifle and make sure you have a large sized (SD) bullet to go with it." (the difference between hunting bear & defense...)
Mr. Hayes has MUCH more evidence for his slugs AT CLOSE RANGE getting the job done as well as any bullet.
However, for me the SLuG issue was settled in MY LAST THREAD...
Now I wish to LEARN, from those who KNOW about the AR .458 SOCOM ...does it hit hard enough, deep enough and is the rifles used durable enough in weather...I know they must be reliable or our military would not use them.
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Flintknapper
Member
There are several bullets for the SOCOM that would be deemed “proper” for large game.
Two of them are the 405 Remington SP and the Barnes 300 gr. TTSX (designed specifically for the 458), both will expand reliably.
My choice for big bear would be the Barnes, it is going to feed the best, retain 100% of its weight, penetrate the most and hold together through heavy bone.
Hunterdad
Member
Good god man, I think you are reading way to far into this. You'll find faults in all the guns you've listed if you keep on splitting hairs.
Pick one and practice with it.
Pick one and practice with it.
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
I would NEVER even consider a bullet like that for bears. Not in a million years. You want penetration, not expansion. A bullet like that would penetrate very little in a heavily built critter like a brown bear. I'd actually prefer the Black Magic slug over an expanding 300gr bullet.
You're REALLY going to recommend the 405gr Remington that is notorious for jacket/core separation, as pictured???
Hmmmm....did I LIST any "faults...???
Just inquires for the best gun/round for a purpose...then applied the reasons given, to ME personally and what may be best fit for ME...?
The REASON anyone is an OP...for ANY thread, no?
WHY IS SO HARD TO KEEP ON TOPIC...???
My OP was straightforward as to what I was asking...
OK Craig...I see, for sure I am "with you" on this one...that seems like a nose covered jacketed HP bullet...he said good penetration...but did not say how deep in tissue?
Let me ask you...or even BETTER....458 SOCOM AR15/M4 owners...this;
"CAN A CAST FLAT NOSE or at LEAST, WIDE ROUND NOSE semi-jacketed soft nose controlled expansion bullet of substantial weight & SD be fed & fired reliably thru the rifles made for this caliber"?
KodiakBeer
member
That's only because the area above the eyes (the prominent "forehead") has no brain behind it, just a boney crest with muscle attachments for the jaws and neck. A grizzlies brain is actually located behind the nose and mouth, and the bone thickness is less than a quarter inch. So, just about any projectile shot into the correct place will put a bear down.
I have no doubt that heavy buckshot will do the job. I tend to think though, that you have better insurance with a slug since a miss might give enough torso penetration to also do the job, where buck probably won't.
Rain, more rain, heavy rain, mist, sleet, then constant battering and tangles with vegetation with every step you take. Maybe it's tough enough to take it, but I'd prefer iron sights.
We're talking about carrying a weapon while hiking or fishing, so I want something that will give me the least trouble. I'll put up with scopes on my hunting rifle, because I need the range to knock down that deer or caribou on the next ridge, yet just by the nature of that activity I'm up above the alder jungles since that's where the game is. When I'm down in the tangled terrain around salmon streams, I carry a shotgun since I won't have to disentangle it from the devils club when I wake up a bear ten yards away.
That's my preference based on my experience. Yours may differ.
.
pikid89
Member
I agree with the guys that are saying that you seem to be getting way too into the GUN aspect of bear defense. Carry whatever gun YOU can shoot best...and tote best.
Think of it like picking a concealed weapon. If ALL i thought about was bullet effectiveness and capacity, i would carry a Glock 20 with an extended 18 rnd mag, but living in south florida, i cant do that without severley limiting what other things i can do in my day to day life. You seem to want a gun based purely on what kind of damage it will do to said bear. You make me think that all you will be doing in the high country is painting your face and sneaking through the woods with you trigger finger shaking at the anticipation of a bear charging at any second so that you can fall on your back ripping on the trigger as fast as possible.
Now the other part of me wants to think you are at heart at least a pragmatic guy and will probably be doing other things in the woods like birding or sight seeing or maybe even fishing. In that case, you will have other pieces of gear you will need to contend with, like a spotting scope on a tripod or a nice camera and a monopod, or a frame pack with your tent, or even a fishing pole and assorted tackle. These things usually require 2 hands or a shoulder to operate or carry. In that case a slim long smoothe unobtrusive marlin guide gun or sporter stocked shotgun fits into the "system" far better than the maybe better bullet of a gun designed for defense against vehicles at checkpoints (SOCOM not BEARCOM)
Think of it like picking a concealed weapon. If ALL i thought about was bullet effectiveness and capacity, i would carry a Glock 20 with an extended 18 rnd mag, but living in south florida, i cant do that without severley limiting what other things i can do in my day to day life. You seem to want a gun based purely on what kind of damage it will do to said bear. You make me think that all you will be doing in the high country is painting your face and sneaking through the woods with you trigger finger shaking at the anticipation of a bear charging at any second so that you can fall on your back ripping on the trigger as fast as possible.
Now the other part of me wants to think you are at heart at least a pragmatic guy and will probably be doing other things in the woods like birding or sight seeing or maybe even fishing. In that case, you will have other pieces of gear you will need to contend with, like a spotting scope on a tripod or a nice camera and a monopod, or a frame pack with your tent, or even a fishing pole and assorted tackle. These things usually require 2 hands or a shoulder to operate or carry. In that case a slim long smoothe unobtrusive marlin guide gun or sporter stocked shotgun fits into the "system" far better than the maybe better bullet of a gun designed for defense against vehicles at checkpoints (SOCOM not BEARCOM)
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Flintknapper
Member
CraigC wrote:
The SOCOM can handle anything from 100 gr. (yes 100) pills to 600 gr. bullets in all configurations (if you handload). IF you want solids, they are available if you want tungsten core (armor piercing) its there, tracers, controlled expansion, etc....its all available.
Additionally, those are just some of the bullets I've been able to recover. Typically, they sail right through animals...or penetrate 24"-30" before coming to a stop. I concede I have never shot a bear with any of these, but I have shot plenty of big hogs with hides and muscle easily rivaling (or surpassing) that of bears.
The key factor with bear..is that their skeleton is large and heavy (especially the shoulder and skull. You have only to look at the performance of the 45/70 on bears...and you can apply it to the SOCOM for the most part.
You would not have to shoot solids out of the SOCOM or 45/70 to be effective. What you do have to do (with any weapon) is achieve good shot placement.
BOTH would be ideal of course...and the need for penetration is not lost on me I can assure you.
I routinely shoot both of these bullets completely though large Feral Hogs from all sorts of angles. I would say that is good penetration. I would not recommend either of these unless I sure they would penetrate adequately.
As would I...but the OP is not soliciting advise on that round, but IS looking for input from folks who actually hunt with the SOCOM and have experience with different loads.
The SOCOM can handle anything from 100 gr. (yes 100) pills to 600 gr. bullets in all configurations (if you handload). IF you want solids, they are available if you want tungsten core (armor piercing) its there, tracers, controlled expansion, etc....its all available.
The 405 can/will shed its jacket depending upon impact velocity and what it hits. However, the remaining core continues on just fine. The examples shown are for the sake of refuting your claim that some of the bullets do not expand.
Additionally, those are just some of the bullets I've been able to recover. Typically, they sail right through animals...or penetrate 24"-30" before coming to a stop. I concede I have never shot a bear with any of these, but I have shot plenty of big hogs with hides and muscle easily rivaling (or surpassing) that of bears.
The key factor with bear..is that their skeleton is large and heavy (especially the shoulder and skull. You have only to look at the performance of the 45/70 on bears...and you can apply it to the SOCOM for the most part.
You would not have to shoot solids out of the SOCOM or 45/70 to be effective. What you do have to do (with any weapon) is achieve good shot placement.
...well put, maybe I have gotten a bit carried away...and YES, I will be going into the wild with other things going on...(not much for fishing, not that I would not like it...but never had had much luck with that, although salmon fishing in AK., side by side with the Brownies (not the Girl Scout variety...)BEARS...may be exhilirating......uh, just kidding, but seriously, LOVE breathtaking nature, exercise / hiking as well as hunting challenging game...and would rather do it with open sights, getting close than long distance snipping animals (nothing derogatory intended to those who hunt w/scopes...far better results & bringing home the meat, I know that, done it...)
I still, want to know I am carrying the BEST gun/caliber/projectile for BEAR DEFENSE ..."I can shoot well"...so getting a consensus for what gun/caliber/projectile for BEAR DEFENSE others believed are...is just a starting point for me.
If I get an AR/M4 it is because I just want one now, NOT because I think I NEED one before I can go out to AK or MT, I have the Benelli (2 actually, M2 & M4 H2O)...and Marlin !895SBL 45-70 on order...adn will determine which will be best for me, after shooting several hundred rnds. each.
Just wanted to find out what AR15/M4 hunters felt about the gun for hunting...and specifically, those with the system in .458 SOCOM
I was under the impression form reading up...that 'cause it could use the SAME bullets as .458 Win. & others, it would have good SD & the ballistics show good enough velocity & energy, especially at close range.
SORRY, nothing negative intended... what is wrong with CAPS...I use it for emphasis
...yes, I am "new" to forums...and seems to be too much sensitivity to text... ???
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CraigC
Sixgun Nut
Both are FAR from ideal but I'll leave you to it. I hope you never have to shoot a bear with one. Especially if your life depends on it. I'm sorry but everything you state flies 180° in the face of what we KNOW about stopping big, hairy, toothy critters.
The point was that I think the Black Magic is barely adequate but would still prefer it over your varmint bullets. Even the USFS tested the 405gr Remington and found it to be dismal.
RPRNY
Member
To the OP, with the greatest of respect, these bear and ballistics threads of yours suggest a mindset not really suited to conditions where Brown Bears may constitute a threat to you. Again, no disrespect intended, but you do not seem constitutionally suited to the situational awareness and response type required in high threat situations. Any well constructed slug or bonded core/partition type bullet from 250 grs upward delivered with a terminal velocity of @1300 fps + and center mass shot placement will suit your ballistic needs. You need to focus on 1) avoidance, 2) egress when in proximity and 3) ability to put firearm on target as rapidly as possible in the event 1 and 2 don't work out. Any of the three or four (counting 454 and greater caliber revolvers) of the firearms you mention will work effectively in the event 3 becomes necessary, but you really seem to need to buck up, get some training in 1 - 3 and become confident about your ability, if absolutely necessary, to do 3 with whichever forearm you choose. Again, with the greatest of respect to you for seeking knowledge, right now, your mindset is a much bigger issue than your firearms choice. I wish you the best in your travels and urge you to focus on 1 and 2 as much as 3 and to train for 3 not just mechanically, but mentally.
Owen Sparks
member
- Joined
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As I understand it the .458 Socom duplicated the middle range velocity loads
of the .45/70 with the exact same bullet. This is a bit stouter than the standard factory loads but not up to the high pressure "Ruger only" loadings. It should do fine on hogs and black bear but maybe a bit light for a grizzly. Then again 10 quick medium power shots may stop a charge better than 3 to 5 slow full power shots. Everything in ballistics is a trade off.
of the .45/70 with the exact same bullet. This is a bit stouter than the standard factory loads but not up to the high pressure "Ruger only" loadings. It should do fine on hogs and black bear but maybe a bit light for a grizzly. Then again 10 quick medium power shots may stop a charge better than 3 to 5 slow full power shots. Everything in ballistics is a trade off.
Hmmm...your seem to think you know me, from what?
I have experience with life threatening armed response...just not with bears.
I will hone my skill with the weapon I chose, I was simply gathering info on the firearms/cartridges I am not too familiar with, and I have listened to ALL the advice from bona fide bear experts like kodiakbeer, who have been mauled, charged and who deal with them on a regular basis, that is the advice I respect...and excuse me, but who are YOU to assess my mental fortitude or state of mind/preparedness???
As to #1 & #2 you state above, I am quite AWARE that is my priority, avoidance & non-conforntaation...who but an idiot would want to test ALL these un-provable intangibles for defense, when one could do what is needed to avoid an attack
I respect the opinions of ALL, including yours... but let's stick to the subject, which is the cartridge/firearm...NOT my "mindset"!
Flintknapper
Member
CraigC
And BTW.... your statement in a different thread (The only problem with the .458SOCOM is that you have to use jacketed bullets) is of course wrong.
1. So you think that only ONE is important? (presumably penetration). 2. Thank you, that is my hope too. I have no desire to have to defend against a bear attack, regardless the weaponry I might be carrying.
What have I written (specifically) that is in conflict with what we "know" about stopping "critters"? Good shot placement and "adequate" penetration are needed....right? After that you hope for the best.
Varmint bullets, this alone (even if offered in jest) serves only to damage your credibility Sir, please spare us.
Then please provide a link to the study and lets see what the testing showed and under what conditions they were conducted. Did it have anything to do with Bears?
And BTW.... your statement in a different thread (The only problem with the .458SOCOM is that you have to use jacketed bullets) is of course wrong.
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