Don't Pay Attention to Trigger Reset

I tend to agree. The rest comes naturally. This is why it takes so many actual rounds shooting to get the hang of quick double taps. You eventually get so good at putting the sights on the target, you can concentrate on the trigger squeeze, too. Eventually you get so good at that, you start noticing the trigger reset. You eventually got so accustomed to the whole deal, you start to stage the trigger and break it just as the sights are coming back in line.

It's like eating while driving. You can't do it by trying to learn how to chew. You just eventually get so good at the driving part you can do other things while keeping your focus on the road.

I agree. Trigger reset is something that should be muscle memory. I focus on hitting my target. I have passed on a gun because the trigger reset didn't work for my muscle memory. I was short stroking it, and I guarantee it would have been a problem had I bought the gun. Ask permission, and dry fire rapidly in the store. This is a purchase consideration, not a training or practice consideration.

JMO

+1. I always dry fire several examples of same model before I buy a pistol and pick the one that has the best trigger reset for me and front sight that moves the least of the bunch - I usually strive for the one that doesn't move the front sight at all.


As to OP, that's why we practice.

When I first learned to drive a manual transmission, shifting and feathering the clutch took some focus away from keeping eyes on the road. With enough practice, shifting/clutching became natural so I could keep 100% focus on the road.

Same with match shooting. When I first started, I was distracted by many different things during stage that took focus away from the targets/front sight but with deliberate practice, more and more things became automatic so I could focus more on target/front sights and my next set of targets.

Another example is double-tapping. At first, it is a slow individual action of "front sight flash -bang" then "another front sight flash - bang" but with practice, it become a well orchestrated "tap-tap" with the front sight dropping to the same POA as the first shot.

I'd never even thought about "trigger reset" until I got the internet. Prior to learning all about how complicated it was, I just aimed when I needed to aim and pulled the trigger when I needed the gun to go bang. I expected my semi-auto pistol to do its job and be ready for the next cycle and repeat as needed. Been doing that for over 50 years.

Practice, practice and more practice had the bullets holes appearing where they needed to be and reaction times were never a problem. I never realized I was ignoring such an important concept. Way too old to change now so I'll just continue to not be concerned with trigger reset. After all, ignorance is bliss.

I agree with the philosophy of your argument. However for training it must be practiced so that eventually it becomes routine. Reset does help a great deal and is pivotal in making good follow up shots.

Just because one is more important than the other, it does not mean to completely ignore the other.

He's partly right -- don't focus so much on the reset that you ignore front sight control, but the REAL objective is to be able to do both.

TGO said this some time ago in a video interview. While I would listen to Tobb Jarrett, if Rob Leatham says something and involves pistol shooting I will listen and obey. Besides the only time you mentally notice reset is when you are slowing down on purpose and that is not a good plan. If you are not slapping the trigger, than reset becomes muscle memory, no thought required. If you have two pistols with significantly different reset, shoot/dryfire the short reset one a few thousand times then the longer reset one. You might short stroke the longer reset gun once or twice but most people let off the trigger way more than the reset point when shooting at speed even if you are not slapping.

David E.

Nuke8401 said:

You might short stroke the longer reset gun once or twice but most people let off the trigger way more than the reset point when shooting at speed even if you are not slapping.

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That maybe true of some factory pistols with longer trigger reset, but I believe the OP's post had to do with Todd Jarret talking about what he does with MATCH pistols.

"input from Todd Jarrett about paying attention to reset (primarily for action pistol shooting)."

Most competitive match shooters at regional/national level would have their pistols/triggers customized/tuned to their hands/shooting finger reach/shooting preference so the trigger reset would occur when their trigger fingers reaches their usual cycling position. This would allow the shooters to shift their focus more to the target/front sight - "Your front sight is always your one conscious focus. Everything else is in the background".

When I was taught to do the trigger job on my match 1911 by my shooting/reloading mentor, the objectives were to lighten the trigger pull (about 3.5 lbs) and hammer release for MY hands and shooting finger's reach as this would vary for different shooters. The Mil Spec 1911s I serviced in the Army had heavier trigger pull that didn't release the hammer until the shooting finger was almost to the back of the trigger guard. My Sig 1911 and a friend's RIA Tactical both have lighter/smoother trigger pull from the factory with earlier/cleaner hammer release that allows the trigger to reset much faster, which in turn allows for faster follow-up shots/double-taps (BTW, Sig 1911 trigger is adjustable).

When I did the trigger job on my M&P45, I filed/polished the trigger components until I got the smoothness/lightness of striker release with the shorter trigger reset I was looking for. With factory trigger pull of around 7 lbs and gritty trigger with longer trigger reset, producing fast/accurate double-taps was a challenge which definitely took focus away from my target/front sight . After the trigger job, trigger pull was around 4 lbs and much smoother/lighter/cleaner striker release with shorter reset which improved the speed/accuracy of double-taps.

Once my 1911 and M&P45's triggers were modified and tuned to MY hands, shooting finger's reach and shooting style/preference, I no longer needed to pay much attention to when the hammer/striker was going to release as that was factored in during the trigger job process. Now, I could shift my focus more to target acquisition/front sight which I think Todd Jarrett was speaking about, "Your front sight is always your one conscious focus. Everything else is in the background".

Finally, the trigger naval gazing is ending?

It's nice to finally have a little cold water thrown onto all this naval gazing that's been going on about triggers the last few years.

I've never bought into some of the stuff being preached - I've noticed some folks are finally starting to come around to what I've believed all along.

Like everyone else, when checking out a new gun, I'll check the trigger pull length and weight, reset, how crisply the trigger releases, etc, but that's probably the last time I'll use the trigger that way (except for sandbaggin' / sighting a gun in).

I've always practiced shooting like I think I'll use the gun - for SD.

As such, I have few things I've always done (they work for me):
1. I (control) slap the trigger - I saw a few years back Thunder Ranch? was now teaching this method. Seems they used high speed video on some folks like Leathem and discovered his finger actually came off the trigger during rapid shooting. If I ever find myself in a fight for my life, I don't think I'm going to be sqeeeeezing the trigger!
2. I focus on the target - nobody knows my eyes like I do, and I hear (a few) trainers / most folks in actual gun fights state when you're in fear for your life, you're going to be focusing on the threat (target)!
3. If my hits are too close together, I work on increasing my speed.
4. My dry fire practice gun is a SIG SP2022 - I practice in DA, using its 12 lb. pull.

'Course, I grew up on DA revolvers, so I'm not nearly as sensitive to triggers as many folks want to be.

What's Ayoob's old quote?
A light trigger pull is, more than anything else, a crutch for bad trigger technique.

Good point.

Ultimately, it's the holes on target that matters.

As long as you are producing the holes on target you intended to produce, how you produce them is up to you.

My brother, an ex-Navy small arms instructor, has always taught a KISS method of shootin. Grip, sights, trigger. Resetting the triggger comes naturally. I never seen the benefit to being taught how to reset the trigger.
You only feel the trigger reset if you go slow. And if you are shooting slow, does it matter if you take your finger off the trigger? I don't think so. if you are shooting fast you won't notice your finger actually comes off the trigger.

...most people let off the trigger way more than the reset point when shooting at speed...

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That's because it is faster than trying to just go to reset. I can come off of the trigger and shoot at twice the speed than if I consciously just go to reset.

Completely agree.

Anyone who has done any amount of shooting knows that you adjust yourself to the tool. All the bitching you hear about triggers is from a bunch of people who have little too no experience shooting. Every pistol and every trigger is different. Show me two that are even remotely the same and I'll show you some wetland in South FL for sale.

^^^^ The trigger resets on my Glocks are the same. I'm not quite sure I agree with your statements

I have been thinking that I would like to focus on it more. Mainly because i'm not sure if I let the whole trigger out or if I just let it out enough to reach the reset point.

I do mainly action shooting and shaving time is a main goal. When i'm in a match the front sight is the focus and I don't really know how well i'm doing in other areas.

I think i'll spend some time shooting slow and developing the proper trigger stroke. Then it will be 2nd nature right?

I never have shot from trigger reset. I tried it once on my G19 and I never could do it the same twice so I went back to my old ways and kept putting holes inthe target. I believe it is Rob Leatham who teaches to completely release the trigger between every shot, and he should know what he is doing.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_175_29/ai_n13466578/?tag=content;col1

I twisted David's [David Sevigny] arm into providing some insights into developing proper trigger control.

"One method is to come off the front of the trigger face after each shot, otherwise known as 'slapping' the trigger. The second way brings the trigger just far enough forward to reset the trigger. For optimum trigger speed and accuracy, I prefer the reset technique. This applies to Glock pistols and a variety of other actions. A proper reset will invariably help you in these areas. Shorter trigger movement should decrease the amount of time between shots and reduce sight alignment disruption."

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Some how people have managed to shoot Browning HPs well all these years. Have you felt the trigger reset on the HP? I've heard people whine about the trigger reset on the M&Ps until I want to puke but honestly it isn't the trigger reset that is making then shoot crappy. The only weapon I've had that the reset bothered me was the XD because the trigger reset was past the point the trigger engages the sear so I would short stroke it after shooting my M&P. It didn't take more than a few shots to overcome that habit. People need to stop being so rigid about every little thing and just concentrate on the basics: Sight alignment and trigger squeeze. I demonstrated this to my wife by shooting her M&P upside down pulling the trigger with my pinky.
If reset was the do all and end all I think everyone would still be carrying 3rd gen Smiths. The reset on my 3913 is super short and positive.

Trigger reset is always a tactile thing for me, just part of the normal trigger pull for the next shot, not anything I ever think about unless I'm trying to evaluate a trigger in dry fire.

I concentrated on trigger reset until it became a natural part of the firing sequence. During practice I concentrate on reset for the first 4 or 5 rounds to build in the muscle memory then concentrate on other aspects of firing the weapon.

OP is talking about trigger reset for Action Pistol MATCH shooting and quoted Todd Jarrett in that context. Perhaps shooting double-taps and not slow fire?

allaroundhunter said:

I have been reading through an Outdoor Life magazine (April 2012), and in it there is an article with input from Todd Jarrett about paying attention to reset (primarily for action pistol shooting).

"Don't Pay Attention to Trigger Reset"

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I generally agree with the statement. However, in order to maximize accuracy with my USP/ LEM trigger, I found that needed to learn the reset and minimize how far I allow the trigger to reset before taking a follow up shot. When hastily running through the long LEM takeup, it is very easy to put a shot off target.

"If you keep barking at someone to pay attention to their trigger, their front-sight focus will only deteriorate, and so will their shooting."

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So, this is in relation to teaching a someone how to shoot? If they already shoot well, and pay attention to the front sight, does it make a difference then?

He mentioned, in this quote, that the trigger should not be paid attention to, but it is arguable that the shorter and lighter a trigger is, the easier the pistol is to shoot, for most people. I'd argue the same for a short trigger reset. If given a choice, who here would take a longer trigger reset on whatever pistol they are using for whatever purpose?

Anyone who has done any amount of shooting knows that you adjust yourself to the tool. All the bitching you hear about triggers is from a bunch of people who have little too no experience shooting. Every pistol and every trigger is different. Show me two that are even remotely the same and I'll show you some wetland in South FL for sale.

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I completely disagree HKGuns.

I believe the trigger is one aspect of the pistol that determines how you shoot with it. It is a characteristic of each and every pistol. Can you shoot a VP-70 as well as a 1911, or the H&K you personally shoot best with?

If not, why not? What's the difference?

I hear people on the internet argue about how a trigger doesn't make a difference. I hear people on the internet argue about how a grip doesn't make a difference. I ask what does then? Since these are, IMO, major differences between pistols.

Can everyone who argues these points shoot every pistol ever made, as well as each other?

If not, why not? What's the difference?

Personally I think its a good practice when learning to shoot quickly to hold "follow through" on the shot by holding the trigger to the rear then releasing through the reset after the shot and while you reacquire the front sight. As speeds pick up this isn't really possible and your focus shifts purely to tracking the front sight. I'll shoot as fast as .15-.17 shot splits and I can tell you there is no way to feel or listen for trigger reset at anything close to that speed. Overall trigger control so you don't disturb the straight tracking of the front sight is the only thing that really matters.
Proper grip helps recoil management and keeping the front sight tracking straight up and down but it doesn't really in itself make you more accurate. Adjusting my grip didn't make me more accurate but it did help me shoot accurately much quicker. You can hold the gun any way you want as long as you have proper sight alignment and can maintain it until the shot breaks through a steady trigger squeeze.

BTW, there should be TEN threads about good shooting technique for every one about with ammo or gun you choose. Good job OP.