Negligent discharges. Going to change how I do trigger control.

[AZAndy]

When I started getting into shooting, I always heard that "pin-and-reset" was the way to go. That's the method in which the trigger finger takes up the slack in the trigger during recoil so that the next shot is ready to break as soon as the sights are where they need to be. (This is with a 1911.) I've always had a problem with it, in that about one percent of the time I'd accidentally fire as the sights were still coming back down. I never worried about it much since it wasn't exactly unsafe, though certainly not optimal. It resulting in shooting way high, but not into the ceiling at the range or anything like that.

I've hit something of a plateau shooting-wise lately and have decided to start doing some competition in order to add speed and motion to the mix. I've signed up for both IDPA and USPSA and have started doing some training, which forced me to face the fact that my trigger control problem can't be allowed to continue. I'm currently looking at a couple of different options. Todd Jarrett and Rob Leatham both use a method in which their finger comes completely off the trigger between shots, sort of a controlled "slapping" technique. There's also the system Bill Rogers teaches, which I've seen referred to as "flip and press." After the shot, the finger stays in the fired position, and then flips forward and straight back when the sights are back in position.

I've done some trials of the Jarrett/Leatham method in dry-fire and I think I see that it might work for me-- the sights were jumpy at first, but with some repetitions became more steady. I can't do the Rogers method in dry-fire, but I'll see how it goes at the range today.

I welcome any advice or suggestions, as I'm sure there's plenty of wisdom here at THR!

 

[Shaq]

The pin & reset may work better when shooting a D.A. revolver in D.A. I have competed with this technique when using a D.A. revolver. It works best with a larger "N" Frame Smith when the revolver makes a distinct "clunk" you can feel when the cylinder locks. For a 1911 or similar design, (at least in my experience,) the controlled slapping design is what works. Really good shooters have mastered the most difficult aspect of this technique: Completely isolating the trigger finger from the rest of the fingers that are gripping the the gun. Once you accomplish that, you can quickly slap the trigger without moving the gun, assuming the trigger is light enough. I watched an interesting training session with Rob Leatham where the shooter gripped the gun while Rob pulled the trigger. Almost all the hits were on target.

 

[AZAndy]

The pin & reset may work better when shooting a D.A. revolver in D.A. I have competed with this technique when using a D.A. revolver. It works best with a larger "N" Frame Smith when the revolver makes a distinct "clunk" you can feel when the cylinder locks. For a 1911 or similar design, (at least in my experience,) the controlled slapping design is what works. Really good shooters have mastered the most difficult aspect of this technique: Completely isolating the trigger finger from the rest of the fingers that are gripping the the gun. Once you accomplish that, you can quickly slap the trigger without moving the gun, assuming the trigger is light enough. I watched an interesting training session with Rob Leatham where the shooter gripped the gun while Rob pulled the trigger. Almost all the hits were on target.

From dry-firing, the trick seems to be to keep the grip really firm so that the trigger finger can operate independently without causing the other fingers to sympathetically tighten (since they can't). It'll definitely take some getting used to. I do the trigger-staging thing with revolvers, though that appears to not be the recommended technique nowadays. Not going to compete with them, so I'll just keep doing it. ;-)

 

[Jim Watson]

You must change your style.
1% is once in an IDPA club match, twice in a typical USPSA.
You don't get to judge what is an unsafe AD, the SO/RO does.

 

[JohnKSa]

I agree with your basic premise. If you are doing something which you know to result in the gun firing when you do not intend it to fire then you need to change what you're doing.

I don't agree with your specific premise that it is necessary to change to a trigger slapping approach to prevent shooting the gun unintentionally.

 

[waktasz]

yikes. How light is your trigger?

What happens if you pin the trigger during the entire firing and recoil cycle, then release and pull through again only after the gun has settled?

It's marginally slower and maybe not ideal, but as a training technique I do it with my students who have an issue with whacking the trigger and immediately pulling their finger away, which causes a lot of movement in the gun.

 

[ATLDave]

What kind of gun (and trigger) are you using?

I think you will find that very few USPSA shooters "prep" the trigger at all on 90+% of the shots, with only the longest/hardest shots getting any kind of conscious prep.

 

[ny32182]

Just FYI. I think most of the time when you say "pin and reset", people are going to think of the style where you pin the trigger to the rear and hold it there until the gun has finished cycling, and then you let it out slowly and "feel the reset". Then pull again. This is different than what you are talking about, which would be some variation of "reset upon recoil".

Pin and hold is too slow for any action games. You need to do a reset on recoil. But if you are "taking the slack out" during recoil, and especially if you are then firing the next round right as the gun finishes cycling, you are simply not getting off the trigger enough to be safe. You need to fix this. This is a rare case where I would say fix it before you really get into too many matches, because otherwise you are going to be learning one DQ at a time, and that is not a good thing to do. Even if most of those shots hit the berm, it is not a safe thing to be doing.

Personally I don't take my finger all the way off the trigger, but some very successful shooters do. Do what you have to do, but this is something that definitely needs to change sooner than later IMO.

 

[AZAndy]

yikes. How light is your trigger?

What happens if you pin the trigger during the entire firing and recoil cycle, then release and pull through again only after the gun has settled?

It's marginally slower and maybe not ideal, but as a training technique I do it with my students who have an issue with whacking the trigger and immediately pulling their finger away, which causes a lot of movement in the gun.

That's the system Bill Rogers teaches-- tried it yesterday at the range and I think I can get used to it. It will take a while before I can try to be fast with it, I think, but it seems promising. The trigger is 4 pounds.

 

[AZAndy]

What kind of gun (and trigger) are you using?

I think you will find that very few USPSA shooters "prep" the trigger at all on 90+% of the shots, with only the longest/hardest shots getting any kind of conscious prep.

Sig 4.25" 1911, 4 lb trigger. All my 1911s run about that trigger-wise, and I encounter the same failure on my part with all of them.

 

[AZAndy]

Just FYI. I think most of the time when you say "pin and reset", people are going to think of the style where you pin the trigger to the rear and hold it there until the gun has finished cycling, and then you let it out slowly and "feel the reset". Then pull again. This is different than what you are talking about, which would be some variation of "reset upon recoil".

Pin and hold is too slow for any action games. You need to do a reset on recoil. But if you are "taking the slack out" during recoil, and especially if you are then firing the next round right as the gun finishes cycling, you are simply not getting off the trigger enough to be safe. You need to fix this. This is a rare case where I would say fix it before you really get into too many matches, because otherwise you are going to be learning one DQ at a time, and that is not a good thing to do. Even if most of those shots hit the berm, it is not a safe thing to be doing.

Personally I don't take my finger all the way off the trigger, but some very successful shooters do. Do what you have to do, but this is something that definitely needs to change sooner than later IMO.

Sorry for the terminology mixup! Yes, I recognize how serious the problem is-- unaimed fire isn't something I want to be doing.

 

[AZAndy]

I agree with your basic premise. If you are doing something which you know to result in the gun firing when you do not intend it to fire then you need to change what you're doing.

I don't agree with your specific premise that it is necessary to change to a trigger slapping approach to prevent shooting the gun unintentionally.

I shouldn't have called it "slapping," exactly-- more like a rapid press. I've tried it both with taking the finger all the way off and with staying in contact with the trigger, and I need more time with both to see what suits me.

 

[ATLDave]

Sig 4.25" 1911, 4 lb trigger. All my 1911s run about that trigger-wise, and I encounter the same failure on my part with all of them.

Yeah, with that kind of trigger I wouldn't think you'd want/need much prepping on all but the longest shots. The kind of shots where you're going to spend a bit of time refining the sights anyway, so no need to try to reset during recoil.

Any chance you're getting a bump-fire with the gun shifting around in your hand under recoil?

 

[AZAndy]

Yeah, with that kind of trigger I wouldn't think you'd want/need much prepping on all but the longest shots. The kind of shots where you're going to spend a bit of time refining the sights anyway, so no need to try to reset during recoil.

Any chance you're getting a bump-fire with the gun shifting around in your hand under recoil?

I'm pretty sure it's a finger failure on my part, rather than anything I can blame on mechanical forces-- just getting too aggressive with the reset, I guess. It doesn't happen on pistols that have longer trigger travel, like DA/SA stuff, or triggers of six pounds or so. I've thought about taking up a DAO gun, but 1911s are what I shoot best and I'm familiar with taking them apart and such.

 

[ATLDave]

Just try whacking the trigger straight back through the travel. This ain't bullseye, and you've got a gun with a fairly nice trigger. Wait till this sights are on the target (i.e., you see what you need to see to get the hit you want to get) and then press the trigger. Don't pre-press it. Forget about prepping the trigger for a while. See if that cures it.