What is considered "good groupings" for handguns?

Though I used a hypothetical very average competitive shooter as my example, my benchmark for good groupings (3"@25) isn't based on a bell curve. It's really based on what I believe is within reasonable reach for most shooters, within a reasonable time frame, given the motivation, some good instruction and quality practice. It's got nothing to do with how much better than average one is, or how "bad" the average is. IOW, if those in the 50th percentile - or even the 95th - are "bad", it's not because of the bell curve - it's because they haven't achieved what they're likely capable of in the right environment.

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I think the definition of "good" inherently DOES depend on what "average" is. Good is not based on what is within reasonable reach, since "reasonable" isn't even the same for everyone. Not everyone can afford lessons and to go to the range 3x a week. So if we establish that good is better than average, the only remaining question is what subset of the population you want to sample for determining your average. Take it from competitive bullseye shooters, okay, 3" at 25 yards may only constitute adequate. Take it from the general population of gun owners at my local range, that would be probably awe-inspiring, and people would come up to you and ask for advice.

It is only natural to want to compare ourselves to our peers. Just as long as we don't delude ourselves into thinking we are all that and a bag of chips because we are the best shooter at the range that day. It's the whole big fish little pond concept. And we should all strive to improve, but I don't think it would be good to have new shooters see this, and someone says that 3" at 25 yards is what constitutes respectable, and they are having a tough time achieving 3" at 7 yards, then they get discouraged and lose interest.

holdencm9 said:

And we should all strive to improve, but I don't think it would be good to have new shooters see this, and someone says that 3" at 25 yards is what constitutes respectable, and they are having a tough time achieving 3" at 7 yards, then they get discouraged and lose interest.

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We're in agreement that we want to encourage all shooters, new ones in particular, to strive to improve if that's what they want.

Again, I feel 3"@25 yards is reasonable because it's is very do-able with instruction and practice, so it's my hope that it encourages, rather than discourages new shooters.

Setting the bar artificially low, though, doesn't help anyone in the long run, and IMO many on this thread do a disservice to new shooters by giving them permission to shoot below their potential. And no, you don't have to be a bullseye shooter, need to be a pro, or have go to the range 3 times a week to be able to shoot "good" groups. These are rationalizations.

Some on this thread called others who claim good shooting skills "internet experts", "keyboard commandos", outright liars. Not High Road at all, for one thing, but more importantly, it's another bar-lowering disservice to new shooters. You'd think that a shooting forum would be all about shooting better, but human nature tends to put that secondary to equipment, and yes, ego. There are a number of really good shooters on this forum, but they tend to be much quieter than those who seem to believe they're "good" simply because they're a gun enthusiast. But "believing" don't make it so. The great majority of people believe they're "above average" drivers, after all.

I think it's time for me to move on. I wish all some "good" groupings!

Group hug!

I don't think anyone set the bar artificially low, and I never called anyone a liar. Some others had alluded to the fact that some posters may exaggerate slightly, but not me. And I don't think it is a disservice to say to a shooter you are doing pretty good if you can keep all your shots on a 8" target at 25 yards, or 50' or whatever. Maybe it is just personal preference, but to me, knowing I am in the upper quadrant of ALL shooters, but that there are still A LOT of shooters WAY better than me and there is a lot of room for improvement, that is a motivation.

There is a difference between saying "good!" and saying "meh, good enough"

Very good post MrBorland.

I'm settling into work, so I don't have time for a long reply. I wanted to take a moment to state plainly that the discussion put forth by myself and others never suggested that any shooter, at any level, should not try to continually improve.

I think that this thread has demonstrated how subjective 'good' is, as most debate centered around different ideas of what is 'good' (naturally, given the topic).

It appears that the best way to answer the topic question is:
"Don't worry about that, just strive to be the best that you can be."

I've been shooting handguns for 46 years, served 20 years in law enforcement and security, did reserve time in the Army, and have been an active shooter most all my life. I can get occasional 2" or under groups with some guns at 25 yards, standing, two hands. I do not yet own "target" grade guns, although some have been pistolsmithed. I get a kick out of stock guns that shoot well, and on previous occasions, have posted targets I have shot, mostly because I am just happy with the results, and that that particular gun is "up to snuff". Here are a few more targets. While less proof than having ya'll standing next to me, submitting the targets themselves and telling you how I got them is about all I, or any of us, can do. You may believe they are the truth, or not. If you have similar guns, similar skills, you MAY get similar results. I know I have enjoyed seeing others shooting results with a particular gun before I went out to buy one. [/IMG] [/IMG]

Good is not based on what is within reasonable reach, since "reasonable" isn't even the same for everyone. Not everyone can afford lessons and to go to the range 3x a week.

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So then we should lower the standards of what good is because some can't or won't do what is needed to be good.

So then we should lower the standards of what good is because some can't or won't do what is needed to be good.

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Wow, misinterpret much?

All I am saying is that good is relative to average, and the average should be taken from what population you consider your peers. If your peers are competition bullseye shooters, so be it. If your peers are everyone else at the range, that's fine. As long as you aren't deluding yourself about how great you are, talking a big game and bragging about how you can school anyone, what does it matter? Maybe instead of good it should be "proficient" or some other such term, but the point is, it is all relative. Otherwise I guess I am "bad" at everything I do because I am not the best at anything I do, or up to snuff with what some online consider "good" because it is reasonably within reach with a little time and effort. If only I had all the time and effort I could shoot 1" groups with my LCP at 25 yards and shred on the guitar and run a 5 minute mile and hit a baseball 500 feet.

Read about half a page of replies, not going to waste my time as I've seen this discussion enough to have an idea what the rest of them say. In case you are still looking for input, when I was new to handguns (XD .45ACP), my first target at 10 yards looked worse than a shotgun pattern. The spread was about 10" side to side with most in a 6" center (couple boxes of ammo in that target). I worked at it and worked at it, dryfiring, drills, etc. Balancing the penny on the frontsight is probably the best of them all. Got my groups down to a fairly consistant 3" at 25, with a couple escapies here and there. I relaxed on my handgun shooting a bit but I still feel confident stapeling an 8" target at 25 yards and knowing that I can keep them all on the paper with a majority toward the middle, specially if I take my time instead of just burning up ammo so that I can run home and reload more

After 4-5 boxes of ammo and dryfire practice, 8" target at 25 is nothing, and you should be able to hit 3" at 10yrds all day long. Just takes a little time and a couple hundred rounds.

How accurate SHOULD you be?? haha, that depends on your application. Remember the generically quoted rules of SD. 3 shots, 3 yards, 3 seconds.

What if we each had a different definition of what 'good' was, but we all continually worked toward being better?


@ SharpDressedMan,

Nicely done, sir! Good post, as well.

What if we each had a different definition of what 'good' was, but we all continually worked toward being better?

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Agreed.

Sharps, nice work, sir.

It makes me glad that we can share our shooting on the internet. It makes me sad that we cannot do it on a sunny afternoon, with all of us in attendance. Maybe we'll rate a day of such comradery and relaxation in the hereafter.

It makes me glad that we can share our shooting on the internet. It makes me sad that we cannot do it on a sunny afternoon, with all of us in attendance. Maybe we'll rate a day of such comradery and relaxation in the hereafter.

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That would be a blast!

It makes me glad that we can share our shooting on the internet. It makes me sad that we cannot do it on a sunny afternoon, with all of us in attendance. Maybe we'll rate a day of such comradery and relaxation in the hereafter.

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I personally can't imagine it being heaven without guns.

It makes me glad that we can share our shooting on the internet. It makes me sad that we cannot do it on a sunny afternoon, with all of us in attendance. Maybe we'll rate a day of such comradery and relaxation in the hereafter.

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Best post in the thread.

Well said, sir. See you, when we get there.

Well, I'll own up to the fact that I'm not a good shot.

Took the Taurus pt99, the beretta 96 (modified) and the Heritage Arms 25 to the NRA range in VA today.

In in this format.
Weapon
Caliber
Ammo
Shots fired
Group size
odd notes

pt99
9mm
Remington umc 115g
29
7" at 15y (45ft)
1st time shooting this gun. Dont know if it likes this ammo. Everything centered, but a good deal of vertical stringing.. most likely me. Only 4 shots outside of a 4" column in the center. The gun doesnt like 15 rnds in the 15rnd mags.. 14 is fine. No failures other than to feed from full mag

Beretta 96d
40 S&W
22
Remington Golden Sabre, 180 gr
shotgun pattern.. no discernable groups - 15y (45 ft)
kicks like a mule, modified 96D centurion to be DA/SA. No failures of the trigger to reset, but the trigger pin tried to walk itself out

H25
25 Auto
CCI blazer and somethinig else
19 - to failure to fires, appears to be light strikes.. didn't second strike em cci works like a champ
6" at 5y (15ft).
7 outside of the main group.. the other 12 have a spread of 3" wide x 2" high
failure to extract on 1 cci.. could be dirty ammo fouling stuff up.. need to clean chamber. Could be a weak extractor spring. Same thing as a FIE Titan.. Would use as a pocket carry, using only cci ammo.

It depends upon the purpose. The answer is obvious if you're betting upon who can get closest to the bullseye. A 4" group at speed at 15 yards is fine for defense. That same 4" group won't win many competitions.

3 inches from 15 yrds

Snake

Ruger Security Six at 25 yards with 158 grain 357 federal

Maybe my favorite drill that makes you shoot on the ragged edge of both is the 25 yard Bill drill. I run mine with IDPA scoring... You need a timer obviously. Draw and fire 6 rounds on an IDPA target at 25 yards, score by IDPA rules, and see what happens.

mesinge, nice shooting...that's just a round fly who landed on the paper off to the right, right?
Seriously, nice shooting, sir.
Sharps, if we meet up in the hereafter to go shooting, I'm calling Earth rules for all shots, no angelic assistance!

Every breath is a shot. perhaps

Last I heard, 2" at fifty yards is required to ace some courses of fire. I could be wrong though