Small based dies for .223?

I've loaded thousands of rounds for my ARs, with no need for small base dies. Unless your reloads are jamming, you don't need them.

....and I definitely needed and bought small-base dies for my target Colt, which has a chamber that wouldn't feed reloads from a regular die set.
hentown is correct- depends on your experience.

If you are buying once fired brass, or picking up cases at the range, all bets are off. Best to small base resize those. You never know what shape the chamber that originally fired the cases was in.

You can have issues with your own ARs. Chambers and sizing dies can be at the extremes of the tolerances and can cause chambering problems when switching cases between different ARs. How do I know, I have such a combination of two ARs and one standard full length sizing die. Cases fired in one of the ARs, resized in that die, will not chamber in the other AR.

So that I do not have an issue, I have elected to small base resize all cases used in my 223 Remington ARs.

Considering a new RCBS X die for .223 - also considering if I should move to a small base die. This die will only be used to make ammo to be fed into a couple of ARs. Both are new and I have already had some minor issues using some previously fired surplus brass that was given to me. Any input is greatly appreciated.

Thank You

Paul

Click to expand...

Curious what die you sized those brass with that didn't feed. Also I could be wrong but if you plan on using a small base die then the RCBS X die won't do much good and you will have to trim.

I have used standard RCBS dies since 1975 or so with GI brass in Colt AR-15's and Ruger Mini-14's and a CZ 527 bolt-action.

I can't imagine the need for small base dies if you adjust the regular FL die correctly.

Most all sizing problems are caused by not setting the die deep enough to shove the shoulder back where it belongs.

The other problem lots of folks seem to have is trying to crimp in the seating die.
A untrimmed case will end up with a imperceptible shoulder buckle that will lock up an AR-15 tighter then the north end of a southbound gnat.

rc

My experiences are exactly the same as cfullgraf's. In any case, a small base won't hurt anything.

I don't have any firearms with out of spec chambers so I have never needed dies that sized the case smaller than factory dimentions. If I had a gun that wouldn't run on factory ammo, I would fix it or sell it, not buy a different reloading die. Really, how would you case gauge the finished product? I have never seen an "undersized casegauge", I guess you could machine one but the you would need to find a source for an undersized chamber reamer.

"Color" a loaded round that won't chamber with a black Magic Marker.

Then chamber it.

Where the Magic Marker rubs off is what is tight where.

I'd be real surprised if it is down near the base of the case.

rc

With total respect for the voice of experience from the gurus of our forum, I wish to add my experience.

It matches the experience of rcmodel, walkalong, jmorris, et al, until it didn't....twice. One in an AR15 clone in .223, one in an AR10 clone in .308. Just lucky I guess. But I learned from it to respect the small-base die. (all Dillon bottle neck sizers are small-based BTW.) Redding and RCBS offer a choice.

First, let me assure you that I know how to set sizers. Second, I crimp AR reloads only in cannelures. Besides the scrape marks on the cases (yes...magic marker used) were 1/2" from the bases. Third, each of those hard to chamber reloads went in my Wilson gauges with a thunk. Fourth, it's easy to say just send the POS back to the manufacturer and make them "fix" it, and maybe it'll still shoot those dime sized holes at a 100 yds when it comes back......or maybe not. Then there's the big wait for them to get around to it and send it back, and if it don't work...more phone calls more shipping, more waiting. Fifth, another option is to grind the shell holder down to make it go in another .002", but that means .002" more shoulder bumping when it already bumps it too much for most AR chambers.

Forgive me if I chose the easiest route that works like heaven. A small-base sizer. Bases size in another whole .001" usually, sometimes, but rarely, .002". Problems gone.....excepting cheap Factory blue box Federals and the cheaper, Wolf steel-cased Factory.

The last point, as I've argued before, is I want my rainy day stash to be usable in any gun, not just the one I have now. Therefore, the closer it is to factory (quality factory that is), IMO, the better. ALL my AR reloads are sized with small-based dies these days. The only thing cheap...is the insurance.

I'm with walkalong on this one, rather have a gun that will run on all ammo than ammo that would run in other rifles. Both would be ideal though.

Walkalong said:

Makes sense to use a small base sizer for rainy day ammo, but I did not, since I don't have one. Rainy day guns should have generous chambers anyway, not tight match chambers. IMHO of course.

Excellent point though, and one to consider.

Click to expand...

You're absolutely right of course, about big chambers and rainy day guns. Never owned one.........hmmm, maybe I should....naaah what's the fun of that. When that time comes and I run out of good ammo, I'll borrow one of my best friend's many Saigas that inhale Wolf ammo like water down a clean trap....or just use my Mini 14. Oops...I lied...guess I do own one...the Mini...and I admit its fun to chase rabbits and tin cans with...lots of fun. Excellent point yourself.

BTW, the "match" gun I had trouble with was supposed to be a hunting rifle....Remingtons DPMS-bilt R-25. Accurate as hell!, but......it'll only fire the first Wolf in the mag.....same with the cheap Federal. All other factory ammo I've tried so far, cycle as fast as I can pull the trigger.....go figure.

jmorris said:

....rather have a gun that will run on all ammo than ammo that would run in other rifles. Both would be ideal though.

Click to expand...

Yes, indeed. Speaking about ideals: Would that be a Saiga as accurate as a Colt, or a Colt as big chambered as a Saiga? No, it'd be a Saiga and Colt, both generous of chamber and accurate to boot. The only ideal we can actually have now is factory and reloaded ammo that work in all of them.

So IMHO the ammo trumps the rifles...so far.

I agree with GW Staar. Until you experience rounds that will not chamber in a particular AR, you do not believe it can happen. The usual comments from the experts are the die is miss adjusted, the shoulder is collapsed, or there was too much crimp. But, insufficient resizing of the body can and does happen with AR ammunition, it just does not happen in many instances.

One issue is the variances in AR chambers. There are several different "standard" chambers each different by a little bit. Add in tolerance variances with chambers and dies and it is really possible to get a case just a skosh too large in the body for a chamber.

Also, remember, most bottle neck case gauges are not chamber gauges. The measure only over all case length and shoulder position. The manufacturers admit that they cut generously in the body area of the gauge.

After being chided a couple years ago that my AR dies were not adjusted properly, I set about doing some experimenting. I bought, and wasted money in my book, a case gauge and a Sinclair bump gauge. After verifying that my full length sizing die was set properly, I fired cases in both rifles, resized them and tried them in them other rifle.

All cases easily fit the chamber gauge and measured correctly for case length and shoulder position.

The rifles are a Colt HBAR (5.56 NATO chamber) and a Compass Lake (Frank White chamber).

Both guns handle factory new ammunition just fine.

Cases fired in the Colt, then resized will chamber in the Colt, but not the Compass Lake.

Cases fired in the Compass Lake, then resized will chamber in both the Colt and the Compass Lake.

Any case fired in any of my ARs, then resized will chamber in my bolt action rifle

I purchased a different brand of standard full length resizing die.

Cases fired in the Colt will chamber in both the Colt and the Compass Lake.

Cases fired in the Compass Lake will chamber in both the Colt and the Compass Lake.

Cases resized in small base dies will chamber in all my AR.

Is the first full length resizing die not made correctly, maybe, but I think it is just made at the extreme of the tolerances. Remember, folks recommend using small base dies when prepping once fired MG cases due to the generous chambers in the MGs.

The Colt's chamber is on the generous side and I suspect the Compass Lake chamber on the tight side.

Interestingly, I have not yet had a problem with chambering with any of my M1 Garands. Standard full length sizing dies have worked fine. Ammunition is pretty interchangeable between the rifles. But, there is pretty much a standard chamber for M1s and every Tom, Dick, and Harry gunsmith is not trying to come up with a better chamber design.

As I said earlier, since I have several 223 Remington ARs, I have elected to avoid any chambering issues and small base resize.

I do not imply that everyone should small base resize their AR ammunition. But I do suggest they know the history of the case and not assume cases of unknown origin will automatically chamber in their rifle once resized.

. The only ideal we can actually have now is factory and reloaded ammo that work in all of them.

Click to expand...

If factory ammo will work why won't ammunition sized to factory dimentions work?

jmorris said:

If factory ammo will work why won't ammunition sized to factory dimentions work?

Click to expand...

Ah, the $64,000 question.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jmorris
If factory ammo will work why won't ammunition sized to factory dimentions work?

Ah, the $64,000 question.
__________________
Chuck

Click to expand...

Because once fired cases swell to the size of the chamber, including the base of the case.

Here's the short answer, if you are shooting a 5.56 AR (oversized chamber) then most likely you will not need to Small Base Resize them, If you are shooting a true match 223 AR you will ALWAYS need to Small Base Resize them.

Just to be on the safe side, I ALWAYS X-Small Base resize my cases and never need to worry that the bolt will get stuck and have to take it to a gunsmith to get it open.

Just my 2 cents.
Jim

jmorris said:

If factory ammo will work why won't ammunition sized to factory dimentions work?

Click to expand...

First lets qualify this. Wolf factory dimensions are not the same as Winchester factory dimensions. Not going down the Wolf road....

When I say factory ammo below, (this post) I mean Winchester...just because I choose to pick an example of quality factory ammo we're all used to.

Reloads sized to Winchester factory dimensions will work of course. But we don't ever get that with regular sizers near the base of the cartridge. Even small-based dies don't size the base that small....they size just .001 or .002 smaller than regular dies. Factory bases still measure smaller....measure them and see. Regular sizers work great for bolt-actions because you get to crank it in with extra arm-power using the bolt's handle. Small-base sizers are just enough smaller to make gas-gun actions (and lever-actions for that matter) close every time without problems even in smallish chambers.

It's such a small difference that Dillon chose to make all their sizers that way to prevent aggravated customers using gas-guns from accusing them of making crappy sizers. But make no mistake, small-based sizers STILL don't size bases all the way back to factory circumference. .001-.002" isn't much, but it's enough to make any gas-gun chamber cut within SAAMI tolerances shoot and cycle.....and it's still bigger than factory.

Why did RCBS come out with their new "AR" sets using small-based sizers and taper crimp dies. Same reason Dillon sells small-based dies....plus now they come with a crimper that won't screw up non-cannelured bullets for folks that insist on crimping. Smart move IMO.

Above the case head, yea, a bit, but if you are expanding the case head, you are really over pressure.

Click to expand...

Using a .308 for an example, I'm talking about the first 3/8" above the extractor groove. Measure a factory round. Shoot it...then measure it. Big difference. Resize using a regular sizer....measure...does not go back to factory. Resize using a small-base die...measure...smaller than the last resize...but still not down to factory. I'm sure we agree a typical Winchester factory round is not likely to be over pressure.

Paul, you may have some old hardened brass there, that tends to spring back some when you size it. That's a fact of life with really old brass, especially if it's work-hardened. You put it through your sizer two or three times and it may spring back less each time for you. But the real answer is to anneal it and then size it.

I had some 60's LC brass that gave me fits trying to swage the primer pockets. The metal was so hard the swager sheared slivers into the pocket base instead of pressing the sides outward as did with other brass. And what didn't shear sprang back enough to make priming a chore on my progressive. The answer for that stuff was to ream the pockets and be done with it. Can't anneal bases and pockets.

Some of that batch required sizing twice using regular dies.....that was a few years ago, before I bought small-based dies, and I was loading for a bolt gun, even. I don't own an annealer yet. jmorris made one to kill for.

Small base dies were a simple solution for me, I shoot .223 in six AR15s and three AKs, once I went to the small base dies all my problems went away. I have a Saiga, Norinco, and Galil, then a Colt, Bushmaster, DPMS, Eagle Arms, Saber Defense, and I don't know what the other one is. Small Base sizing runs well in all of them.

You already said you had issues with once fired surplus, so this should be a no brainer, use small base dies.

I recommend you use a good lube, such as RCBS water soluble or Imperial sizing wax. Spray on lubes will stick the case in a small base die.

Also, buy a cartridge headspace gage and set your die up with the gage. Size to gage minimum. You will never have correct cartridge headspace if you set your dies up to the standard "to the shell holder and add a quarter turn". You will find this out once you have gages to measure what you are doing.

And, don't crimp. Crimping will buckle the shoulder or do wierd stuff to the bullet. Crimping causes more problems than it solves. Can't think of any problems it solves, so in my opinion, crimping is a problem. Rely on neck tension only.

You may need to crimp for a lever action, elephant gun, a chain gun, or a heavy recoiling pistol. Crimping is not needed for the rest. Well, I crimp my 45 ACP's but that is a handgun thing.