Makarov confusion: actual origins and caliber mods?

Are you talking about the Polish P-64? It fires the same 9mm Makarov cartridge as the Makarov PM pistol, but it is an entirely different design.

Wikipedia is correct in that the Makarov PM was not manufactured in Poland.

the 9mm mak round was developed by the Russians in an effort to disarm the populous....yes thats right. they controlled what came across their borders and made none of the previously available ammo. the 9mm Mak round was guarded and only given to the police and military so once the civilan ammo dried up they had guns with no ammo. guns produced for this caliber were made under the control of Russian licensed makers in commieblock countries and China.

once relations eased up the commie guns could be outfitted for American type ammo quick enough since the dimensions of the 9mm Mak and .380acp werent that far off.

this is the short and sweet of it....

The Polish P-64 is NOT a Pistolet Makarov pistol. It is a totally different design with NO parts interchangeability. It shoots the 9MM Makarov cartridge but that's where the similarity ends.

You are confusing the 9mm makarov caliber cartridge with different pistol designs chambered for the 9mm Makarov caliber.

Ignition Override said:

Having just begun doing actual reading about handguns for both a first handgun, and first CCW permit in the near future, checked Wiki for its Mak info. I'm quite familiar with the fact that many suggest buying a more powerful gun for CCW.

First of all, Wiki claims that only Russian, Germany, Bulgaria and China produced the guns. Therefore, were the Polish guns built somewhere else? Wiki must be wrong.

Somebody on GB has a Russian in .380 ACP. Curious about various 9mm Luger, .380 and 9x18 gun prices. This must have been a rebuild here in the US? There must be few of these.

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If you must go with 9x18Mak I would go for Bulgarian PM or Czech CZ82/83 as these are by far the best of the bunch. While not in same class as Beretta the CZ82 is pretty good little gun.

Wikipedia is correct. You are confusing guns chambered in 9x18 "makarov" for actual makarovs. The other guns chambered in 9x18 have ZERO parts interchangability with a makarov. (well, maybe a p83 or cz-82 recoil spring would work in a makarov, but that's about it).

Of the calibers you can get a makarov in, 9x18 is the most powerful AND the cheapest (by far, if you buy the ammo on the net). Hornady, corbon, and buffalo bore make modern JHP's in 9x18.

It comes down to how much you want to spend really. If you want to spend under $250 on a carry gun, and want to belt carry and not pocket carry, the makarov is by far the most reliable gun you will find (actually, i'd argue you won't find a semi-auto that's more reliable than a makarov at ANY price), and is small enough to easily hide under a t-shirt.

If you'll spend $500 or so, a whole world of lighter choices that take more powerful ammo opens up.

And so the Polish P-64 Makarov, which was not built in Poland, might have limited parts interchangeability with the typical Makarovs from Russian, Bulgarian, China or Germany?

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Huh? The P-64 was made in Poland. But it's not a Makarov PM pistol. It just fires the 9mm Makarov cartridge.

That's like saying a 1911 and an HK45 are the same pistol because they both fire .45ACP.

There are several other guns out there that shoot the 9mm Makarov cartridge but aren't actual Makarovs. I used to own a FEG PA-63 made in Hungary which had nothing in common with my Makarovs but the ammo. I've carried a Makarov -first a Russian and then a Bulgie- for ten years now. Scary accurate and reliable.

the 9mm mak round was developed by the Russians in an effort to disarm the populous....yes thats right. they controlled what came across their borders and made none of the previously available ammo. the 9mm Mak round was guarded and only given to the police and military so once the civilan ammo dried up they had guns with no ammo. guns produced for this caliber were made under the control of Russian licensed makers in commieblock countries and China.

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I don't know where you heard that, uhm, interesting interpretation.
The Makarov was developed after WWII to replace aging Tokarev and Nagant handguns. The spec's were that it be as powerful as it could be with a simple blowback mechanism which led to the development of the 9x18 Makarov cartridge. The thicker bullet was supposed to have better wounding characteristics than the 7.62x25mm. Later they played with "suping up" the Makarov cartridge and produced a "high impusle" version. They also developed a 9x19mm version of the Makarov with a sort of rifled chamber to help it grab the cases and hold them in place long enough for the pressure to drop to safe levels before ejecting. It worked but chewed the cases and from what I've read stung like the dickens to shoot.


Cheers

What the hell?
there is LOTS of confusing here
Apple nailed most of the flotsam, but I have issue with this.

Later they played with "suping up" the Makarov cartridge and produced a "high impusle" version. They also developed a 9x19mm version of the Makarov with a sort of rifled chamber to help it grab the cases and hold them in place long enough for the pressure to drop to safe levels before ejecting. It worked but chewed the cases and from what I've read stung like the dickens to shoot.

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9Mak (more correctly 9x18 (makarov - to distinguish it from all the other 9x18 rounds, and yes there are a few) wasn't supped' up, rather this is confusing two things, the CZECH created a SINTERED IRON 63?grn 9x18 Vz. 82, which is NOT 9mm Mak - it's like saying 38 ACP and 38 Super are the same. It was specifically designed for their service side arm, the Vz. (here known as CZ) 82. The round is black, as it's iron, and will eat rifling, hence the poly barrel on the 82, it was sold with some PA-63 as a bundle back in the day, two issues, its about 20% hotter than 9Mak, and it's IRON.

Second part, they TRIED to see if the Makarov could be adapted to fire 9mm(x19, NATO, luger, parabellum....) by upping the springs and grooving the chamber to increase the case's "hold" Side effects happen to be shredding the brass, no importer would buy it cause of the liability, supposedly it was on the bleeding edge of tolerance.

SO to recap
*there is one gun called the PM or Makarov. *edit, made by Russian, EG, China, Bulgaria - and afew more, like North Korea that are really rare (supposedly)
*There are a few guns chambered in the Caliber of 9x18(makarov) - they are not 'makarov' such as the Micro Desert Eagle (actually a CZ design)
* 9mm Mak, is 9mm Mak, not 9x18mm Vz.82, not 9mm (nato etc.)

Shadow 7D said:

such as the Micro Desert Eagle (actually a CZ design)

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You mean CZ as in Czech Republic, not the gun company known as CZUB, correct? According to the information that I have, the micro DE is an import (or maybe a copy) of the ZVI Kevin
http://www.zvi.cz/en/products/9-mm-pistol-kevin.html

Czech, yes, pardon me for not being more specific, but I can plead that at one time pretty much all of the Czech Republic's arms industry was under the umbrella of the CZ moniker.
Considering the reputation of the MDE, consider what a pocket monster the Kevin must of been in 9Mak, it sounds like a real beast in .380.

hAkron said:

You mean CZ as in Czech Republic, not the gun company known as CZUB, correct? According to the information that I have, the micro DE is an import (or maybe a copy) of the ZVI Kevin
http://www.zvi.cz/en/products/9-mm-pistol-kevin.html

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I've been carrying a Mak a lot lately. I can't carry at my job, so I have to leave my carry gun in the car a lot. Well, much as I love my springfield EMP, I really don't want to leave that in the car. Corrosion, theft, who knows, it scares me because that thing ain't cheap.

My carry Mak? No big deal if it gets stolen or ruined. It's a Bulgy with a crappy finish that I paid like $160 for. Not pretty, but 100% dead nuts reliable, and hides under pretty much anything. I wouldn't want to get hit by 9x18. While no 10mm, I'm sure it doesn't feel good to get shot with, and would do the job of convincing my attacker than he needs to be elsewhere asap just fine.

Shadow 7D said:

Czech, yes, pardon me for not being more specific, but I can plead that at one time pretty much all of the Czech Republic's arms industry was under the umbrella of the CZ moniker.
Considering the reputation of the MDE, consider what a pocket monster the Kevin must of been in 9Mak, it sounds like a real beast in .380.

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Agreed, lots of motorcycles and such too were generically branded CZ. Kind of like Norinco
(From Wikipedia)
"The China North Industries Corporation (Chinese: 北方工业 or 北方工業; pinyin: Běifāng Gōngyè; literally "North Industries"), official English name Norinco, is a Chinese aerospace and defense company that manufactures vehicles (trucks, cars and motorcycles), machinery, optical-electronic products, oil field equipment, chemicals, light industrial products, explosives and blast materials, civil and military firearms and ammunition, etc. Norinco is also involved in domestic civil construction projects.
Norinco is also known outside of China for its high-tech defense products, some of which are adaptations of Soviet equipment. Norinco produces precision strike systems, amphibious assault weapons and equipment, long-range suppression weapon systems, anti-aircraft & anti-missile systems, information & night vision products, high-effect destruction systems,[4] fuel air bombs, anti-terrorism and anti-riot equipment and small arms.

IO
NO NO NO
the P-64 (polish walther clone) has a CRAZY, as in I though the guns were BROKE, DA pull, something on the order of 14-25lb, BUT the SA is in target pistol range, scare light and crisp (with original power springs)

While a Mak, may not be a target gun, it's trigger is on par with pretty much every mass produced duty gun. NO WHERE NEAR, not even in the next county to the Polish gun.

The commercial Maks were sold through an entity like NORINCO, I forget what it meant, but the IJ-70 was a commercial variant in .380, later pure commercial guns were double stacked.

Shadow 7D said:

The commercial Maks were sold through an entity like NORINCO, I forget what it meant, but the IJ-70 was a commercial variant in .380, later pure commercial guns were double stacked.

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Baikal made the IJ-70

The IJ70 was the commercial Russian gun. They came in IJ70-17 (the 9x17mm or .380) and IJ70-18 (the 9x18mm version). My IJ70-18A is sitting right here on the desk. I can't remember the double stack designation but I'm sure someone will look it up.

Shadow 7D,
The Russians actually did play around with pushing the envelope of the 9x18 Makarov round, called it the "PMM" or PM "Modified" or "Modernized" however you translate it.
As per World Guns dot R U
http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hg/rus/makarov-pm-pmm-e.html

During the last decades of 20th century there were numerous attempts o improve some of deficiencies of PM, most specifically its relatively low stopping power and lethality, and low magazine capacity. First, an improved version of the cartridge, with lighter bullet and hotter powder charge, was developed as 9x18 PMM. This cartridge developed muzzle velocity of 430 meters per second as compared to 315 meters per second of original 9x18mm ammo. Large capacity version of the PM was developed along with the new ammo, which included a slight grip frame redesign to accommodate thicker magazine. Grip panels also were improved. The PMM was offered for both military and law enforcement buyers, and eventually at least few were ordered by Russian police forces, although in standard 9x18 chambering. The 9x18 PMM ammunition was not issued on any significant scale due to the danger of loading the new ammunition into the old guns, which may result in damage to the old and worn-out guns. Instead, Russian Army finally went for a new, more promising pistol, developed at the same state-owned Izhevsk Mechanical Plant, the Yarygin PYa.

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From what I hear they did use it in their subguns like the Bizon (whose letter/number designation I can't recall off the top of my head). Once upon a time I got my hands on two boxes of an "enhanced penetration" version of the 9x18 Makarov ammo with a steel penetrator mixed in with a batch of regular stuff. Had to shoot those outdoors.

I am always amused to see statements like "Norinco is a Chinese company" or (and in the Washington Post today) that arms are "diverted from state factories" to illicit arms traders and sent to Africa.

What nonsense! China is a Communist country. There are no Chinese companies, or Chinese factories, or Chinese banks - all are different aspects of the Chinese government and its army. (The PLA "owns" Norinco.) And nothing gets "diverted" unless the government wants it diverted.

So who are those Chinese "investors" and Chinese "banks" that hold trillions of dollars of U.S. debt? Guess. And when will they call in the loans and bankrupt us? Any time they want to.

Jim

China is a communist country, but there are still private companies in China. I'm sure they are not protected in the same way as a private company in a capitalist democracy, but they do exist. Norinco is listed as a public company, and no doubt is probably heavily held by government concerns, but it's still a company for all intents and purposes.

Ignition Override said:

Having just begun doing actual reading about handguns for both a first handgun, and first CCW permit in the near future, checked Wiki for its Mak info. I'm quite familiar with the fact that many suggest buying a more powerful gun for CCW.

First of all, Wiki claims that only Russian, Germany, Bulgaria and China produced the guns. Therefore, were the Polish guns built somewhere else? Wiki must be wrong.

Somebody on GB has a Russian in .380 ACP. Curious about various 9mm Luger, .380 and 9x18 gun prices. This must have been a rebuild here in the US? There must be few of these.

Click to expand...

The Russians adopted new pistol for their regular police and military forces (elite guys get the Glock). It is called 'Crow' or 'Raven' chambered for 9x19 cartridge quite similar gun to S&W 5946 except it's all carbon steel and much cruder in execution.

If you get a true Pistolet Makarov (PM) the Russian designed "real" Makarov you really will not have to worry about parts. I don't understand the "Polish" parts thing you keep talking about. Forget the P-64 unless you change out a bunch of springs to get the trigger pull more manageable.

I sometimes carry a Bulgarian Makarov. Dead nuts reliable, and accurate.