Front pocket carry: P-64/Mak./Bersa in holster

[Ignition Override]

This is another prelim. question to help narrow the choices in the next two months or so. The first handgun will be bought for the CCW class late this winter, but some time will be needed to decide on whether to actually "carry", or not.

A Sig 232 is reported to be too large for a thin holster in the front pocket of typical humid warm/hot-weather pants (Not 'gun pants'); my shirts are almost always tucked in. The PPK and Bersa are also too large?

Many people prefer the Polish gun, but the dimensions on Wiki seem the same as the rest of these 9x18s and .380s.
Based on Wiki, the Mak and P-64's length, height and width are about the same. Some of my confusion is which single-stack grips are too thick for front pocket use. Too bad that the Cz-82 is too thick and long etc.

 

[19-3Ben]

but the dimensions on Wiki

Try it in real life. I've found that "on paper" dimensions don't tell the whole story. The shape of the gun, the edges, etc.. make a big difference.

 

[ApacheCoTodd]

I often front carry my 230SL in an El Paso PPK holster. Now here, open/CCW is not really an issue - so there's that.

You note having your shirts normally tucked - I'm thinking most any front carry of intermediate size will be partially exposed - is that an issue for you?

 

[DanTheFarmer]

Hello IO,

Since the Bersa is on your radar scope I wanted to point out that Bersa also makes the Bersa Thunder 380CC.

The standard Bersa Thunder 380, their most well know model, is very similar in dimensions and general layout to the PPK. The CC model is slightly thinner, has low profile sights, a shorter slide, smaller hammer extension, and other features to make concealed carry easier. Interestingly its magazine holds 8 rounds vs. the 7 for the standard model. I have both models and the CC feels "a lot" smaller in my pocket compared to the standard model.

If you are considering a Bersa try to check out the CC model as well and see if it works for you.

Good Luck.

Dan

 

[Dan-O]

Another thing you may want to consider is how much range time you are planning on spending with the firearm. I have the Bersa CC and it is a pleasure to shoot. I also have the P-64.....and it's not fun to shoot. In addition, the trigger on the P-64 is absolutely horrible. It is nearly impossible to fire in DA mode. Once it is in SA mode, it is doable, but it still sucks. A Wolff replacement spring helps, but it is still narsty. Another thing that I don't like about the P-64 is that my hand seems to be a magnet for slide bite from the P-64.

 

[M-Cameron]

Another thing you may want to consider is how much range time you are planning on spending with the firearm. I have the Bersa CC and it is a pleasure to shoot. I also have the P-64.....and it's not fun to shoot. In addition, the trigger on the P-64 is absolutely horrible. It is nearly impossible to fire in DA mode. Once it is in SA mode, it is doable, but it still sucks. A Wolff replacement spring helps, but it is still narsty. Another thing that I don't like about the P-64 is that my hand seems to be a magnet for slide bite from the P-64.

thats odd, i love my P64, mine is incredibly accurate and i love shooting it.

i will agree with the trigger, the DA is REALLY heavy....but the SA in mine is fantastic, it almost feels like a match trigger.

 

[kokapelli]

Am I missing something here? Why not just get a 380 that was actually made for pocket carry?

Sig P238

Taurus TCP

Ruger LCP

Kel Tec P3AT

S&W Bodyguard

Seecamp

Micro Desert Eagle

Rohrbaugh

The list goes on and on and you can even find a bunch of 9mm pistols as small or even smaller than the 380 pistols your asking about.

 

[Dentite]

Just my opinion but once I got an LCP the p64 started gathering dust to the point of selling it to fund a different gun purchase. I like the p64, cool looking gun, small enough to pocket but I found it a bit too heavy for comfortable pocket carry.

 

[bikerdoc]

I got to agree with Dan-O
Bersa Thunder CC is my choice.

Dan-O, Where did you get the grips!

 

[Ignition Override]

Those are all excellent points and I will review them in the next couple of months.

How about the debate which concerns the eastern Euro "drop safe" guns which use 9x18?

Somebody on a different website stated that the Hungarian FEG (9x18) has a type of hammer that won't cause an AD if the gun is dropped.

 

[HPShooter]

Hello,

Here in SWFL my EDC is usually the Makarov. Either in the waistband or in the pocket. It hides fine in a pleated trouser or fishing shorts pocket.......obviously would not work in a jeans pocket. That's where the micro .32s & .380s come in.

Reasoning: First, the Makarov is absolutely stone reliable right out of the box. Based on my experience with 2 nib Baikal IJ-70 (with the adjustable sights). Some have called it the "AK-47" of pistols. With which I agree.

Secondly, highly accurate. More on that below with links.......also based on my personal experience.

Thirdly, it is very easy to shoot comfortably, which bears directly on practical accuracy. I believe that would be more difficult with the Polish P-64. That is, based on my experience with the similarly sized Hungarian R-61 in 9X18mm (downsized PA-63). Having said that, some people love their P-64s. I just find a bit of extra weight and size helps. Remember that the 9 X18mm round is indeed slightly more powerful than the .380. Typically runs about 100 f.p.s in ball. So there is just a bit more recoil, which to me is noticeable in the downsized 9 X 18 pistols.

Forthly, the Makarov handles very similarly to my next step up, the incredible CZ-82. This is the currenct Combloc surplus steal, perhaps along with the P-64 for those who like the latter. If conditions allow a suitcoat, sweater, windbreaker, or one of those tail out tropical shirts we have here - either the CZ-82 or Browning Hi Power is on me.

The battery of Kel-Tec P32, Makarov, CZ-82, and BHP covers all the bases for me. All are stone reliable. I will carry the largest I can given what I'm wearing........and the BHP always rides along in the Suburban.

I have no personal experience of the Bersa, but I have a close friend here who is a serious CCW Instructor and who loves his, swears by it.

Let me suggest a couple of sites which will help you get a very informed perspective:

www.hipowersandhandguns.com - this is the site formerly run by the late, and very much missed, Stephen Camp. It is full of thoughtful tests and evaluations of many carry candidates. All evaluated in the light of his experience as a Texas policeman. Click on the "Other Handguns" sub-link there and you will find detailed eval and comments on the Makarov and "Makarov vs. Bersa". There are several short articles there that bear directly on your choices.

www.makarov.com - there is a wealth of information on the Makarov and all these other Combloc pistols maintained on that site.

You will be well served by either the Russian, Bulgarian, or East German Maks. They are around, low mileage or nib if you check the LGS and auction sites.

Good luck with your hunt and carry with confidence.

 

[HPShooter]

PS Drop Safety - I think all the Makarov and all the other 9 X 18mm pistols are well thought out and drop safe. Someone posted somewhere that "if you dropped a Makarov from 30,000 ft. onto concrete and it hit directly on the muzzle, it might fire".

The Makarov, CZ-82, PA-63, P-64, and their former Combloc relatives all started out as military pistols. All seemed to have been designed with safe handling amongst troops in mind - adopting a much safer to carry and use than the TT-33 Tokarev was a specific goal of the requirement that resulted in the Makarov.

Losing an expensively trained soldier to an accidental discharge does not serve the interests of the State, da, Comrades?

I have specifically researched this drop safety question about the CZ-82, too. It is designed to be carried hammer down. It will not fire unless the trigger is fully to the rear. BTW, if you like the .380 round, you might also check out the CZ-83. It is available new from CZ-USA, more expensive than the surplus CZ-82s but with various finish choices available.

For that matter, the current Browning Hi Power manufacturer's instruction booklet
in the box specifically recommends carrying hammer down - after a careful two step lowering of the hammer all the way (first to half cock, then all the way).
That prompts frequent debate on the "cocked & locked vs. hammer down on a live round" question on some boards - but think about it: if a high end manufacturer is going to put that in writing, the inertial firing pin set up must be pretty darn safe......and proven.

Hope this helps.

 

[Ignition Override]

HPShooter:
That helps a lot, and will look up those other websites.

The main hang-up, if I decide to carry, is what/where. The shirts are always tucked in.

 

[HPShooter]

IO,

If your shirts are always tucked in and you don't typically wear pleated suit trousers, then you may be better served by the Bersa CC model. It is just slightly smaller than the Mak, and was specifically designed for CC. One of those with an Uncle Mike's (or DeSantis, or Remora) pocket holster and you're good to go. BTW, I always use pocket holsters when carrying in the pocket.

Another trick that accomodates a surprising number of the pistols we're discussing in light of the "always tucked in" requirement: unbutton the last two lower buttons of your dress shirt, insert pistol to your left lower abdomen, re-button shirt. Noted Lawman & gunwriter Skeeter Skelton carried his Walther PPK that way in the Southwest some years ago. His comments are where I picked this idea up. However, I'll wager he usually carried that way wearing jeans, which tend to have a tighter hold than trousers.

It works, pistols disappear; with a couple of caveats. First, belt selection becomes more serious in general when you enter the CCW lifestyle. Get one that is comfortable and sturdy. Also be aware that a pistol in the belt without a holster will have a mind of its own .......running or other rapid movement isn't recommended.

You can also use an Uncle Mike's, DeSantis Super Fly, or Remora holster for the "buttoned inside the shirt over to the left technique". This helps considerably, comfortable for driving, too. Just remember the pistol may move unpredictably if you have to run or make a sudden movement.

Some of the carry techniques do not result in your being "Quick Draw McGraw".......but you will tend to always have a pistol with you. As a Southerner you will appreciate columnist Charlie Reese's observation that "If you ever need a gun, you're going to need it in a hurry". Which dovetails with the first rule of gunfighting, "Have a gun".

On balance with the criteria you've given you may be best served by the Bersa CC. I'd try to do a dimensional side by side comparison, handle both if I were you. You'd be surprised how easy it is to hide a Mak.

Also remember that there is no substitute for using the Mk 1 eyeball and situational awareness to gain time for deployment - and/or walk away from trouble if you can.

If due to your circumstances you need something even smaller, for deep concealment - go with the Kel-Tec P-32. 7 & 1, & 2 mags available, slide locks to the rear when empty, proven and in production a long time now. Accurate, too. I have made Coke cans bounce at 15 yards with that little thing. BTW, I think the difference in effectiveness between .32 and .380 ball is negligible. Penetration to depth is the most important thing, so I'm fine with ball here (i.e., full metal jacket).

The Kel-Tec P-32 has been described as the "Everywhere" gun......and it is.

Good luck with your quest.

 

[HPShooter]

PS I have not evaluated the "tuckable" inside the waistband holsters out there at all. That may help you here. I leave to others who have experience with those - and wear them all day long - to comment.

 

[AFDavis11]

Try to find a similar size and weight object and toss it into your pocket for a day or two. I recently tried to transitioned to a smallish .380 with the full intent of pocket carry. Either I couldn't find a suitable gun (one that I really felt I could work with) or I finally realized that I didn't really want to pocket carry. I guess in the end I think you have to try it for a bit before you really know.

And then, if you don't pocket carry, it opens up a few more, heavier and more substantial (hand filling) options. I think that might be the direction you're headed in.

For me those smaller lighter options that kokapelli mentioned are better for pocket carry. Also, consider, up front, the value of a good pocket holster, especially if you are looking at larger, heavier, and potentially rare guns.

Good luck!

 

[MedWheeler]

I tried pocket-carrying my Bersa Thunder. No joy. Much better with the Kel-Tec PF9, especially if I use the magazine that has the flat floorplate. But, even that has its limits, especially in jeans, so a P32 joined the gang.