Based on my first question never asked here's the second

I've spoken with a feller who used to shoot something like 6 grains of rifle powder in his Remington. I'm not putting smokeless in anything but my NAA companions and smokeless firearms.

If you were wise enough, studied enough, bored enough could you find an equivocal smokeless charge to use in a cap and ball revolver.

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If I was studied enough and bored enough I probably could. I would also be wise enough not to use it.

I'd be curious of what would happen if you were to put say, 1 grain of Bullseye in a .36 Remington. But I wouldn't use smokeless in a BP firearm. That's asking for trouble.

Pancho, when you get that bored, read a good book!

I am sure somewhere, somebody has done exactly what you are asking about, heck, some folks even use Pyrodex. The problem with the newer powders is the expansion ratios and pressure curves are much different than the original powder. This is one of the reasons damascus barrels got such a bad reputation. They were fine when used with blackpowder but the early smokeless and semi-smokless powders were misused by the reloaders of the day. Fellows who were used to loading 3 drams of black tried to use the same amount of the white powder. Noit so good!

With a safe load of smokeless (if there is such a thing) I would imagine velocity would be very low.

an equivocal smokeless charge

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If you meant it, that's a brilliant pun.

If not, well, there's really no such thing as a smokeless powder charge that's equivalent to a black powder charge.

The reason is well stated by Strawhat. The pressure time histories are very different. You can match peak pressure or total energy output but not both.

Which is also the reason the smokeless powder charge is equivocal.

Pancho said:

Based on my first "question never asked" here is the second.
If you were wise enough, studied enough, bored enough could you find an equivocal smokeless charge to use in a cap and ball revolver.
Hunting season is over Spring is a months away it's time to let my mind wander to places it's never been.

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Both 777 and BlackHorn 209 are smokeless powders that have been engineered to satisfy the requirements for using them in blackpowder guns. Just use one of those. BlackHorn 209 is my favorite because it is almost non-hygroscopic and non-corrosive.

Triple Seven is my favorite non black powder....but if you just don't want to use black powder anymore, get a conversion cylinder. And some Ultramax .45 Colt. Ultramax is ''Cowboy Ammo'' specifically loaded to low pressures, with antique guns in mind, and isn't really ''off the shelf''' modern ammo. The conversion cylinders, in the instruction and warnings sheet that comes with each one call for exactly this kind of ammo, and it can be had from Sportsman's Guide. You can reload it to the same specs useing smokeless powder, the info for Cowboy Action'' loads is all over the internet. Why blow up a gun, and maybe injure yourself?

The only thing I shoot smokeless powder in is my 2nd Generation Colt Peacemakers. My Sharps, Trapdoor, Remingtons and 1860 Colts, and any other percussions or Flintlocks I own all get a dose of Goex BP. Never been so bored as to try to blow up my hand or face.

Triple Seven is a great powder. On the first can that I bought I fell in love with it right away. For mouseguns it's great, it can really wake up your old .22's or .32's if you use it right. In fact you could probably get the same performance out of your shorts and specials with it as you would with smokeless loads.

As for putting smokeless powder in a BP gun, I think you could get away with a SMALL amount. I wouldn't want to be holding the weapon when it is fired, but if you had a nice ransom rest set up that might be a cool experiment. Perhaps if you used a small amount of shotgun powder and sealed the chamber with superglue to simulate a crimp you could get it to work and not turn your hand into hamburger meat.

The short answer is yes. Here is an example from our poor British cousins, and the trials they must endure.
http://westlakeengineering.com/14911.html

The long(er) answer:

It isn't likely that the home guru could develop a good, safe load independently without testing equipment. That is, without a way to measure the pressure, things are rather dicey, especially with reproductions of classic designs.

And Levi, I'm not sure why you would want to even consider using superglue. Bullet crimp is really only necessary to keep the bullets from moving during recoil, and that isn't typically a problem with cap and ball. (Or at least, it is less of an issue than it is with magnum center-fire cartridges.)

Lunie, I'm thinking that might help ensure uniform ignition of the powder. Practically every cartridge you buy nowadays is crimped (I'm sure there's some exception)

Then again I'm kinda new to reloading with smokeless powder, feel free to school me on this sort of thing.

If you were wise enough, studied enough, bored enough could you find an equivocal smokeless charge to use in a cap and ball revolver.

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Hum... why not just go to Lowes and buy yourself a good ball-peen hammer, and then find a good friend to smack you on the bridge of the nose with it. The resulting injury probably won't be as bad and you will still have your revolver when you get ready to go to the range.

Ditto other posts on pressure differences. The two powders cannot be interchanged in a black powder firearm.

Busyhands94 said:

Lunie, I'm thinking that might help ensure uniform ignition of the powder. Practically every cartridge you buy nowadays is crimped (I'm sure there's some exception)

Then again I'm kinda new to reloading with smokeless powder, feel free to school me on this sort of thing.

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In My Opinion, and all that...

A primary application of significant (roll) crimp is to prevent bullet creep/setback in revolvers or tubular magazines.

For example, I don't crimp .30-06 at all. And taper crimping on straight walled pistol cases that headspace on the mouth is largely about removing the belling of the case mouth (done to aid in bullet seating), rather than an attempt to increase neck tension or make it more consistent. I may bell just a little too much, but my rounds would not chamber smoothly or at all if I didn't remove the bell. The Sierra 5th Edition says: "Throughout the rest of this discussion, bear in mind the fact that not all cartridges will require a crimp of any kind. For those cartridges which can be loaded without resorting to a crimp, we recommend you skip this step altogether." If you don't have the Sierra manual, I highly recommend you consider it if you want to pick up another reloading manual.

But don't take my word fer it. Read yer books!

With that in mind, I don't think resorting to superglue would be necessary for the loads being discussed. Again, smokeless loads that duplicate peak pressures of BP loads are doable, just not generally for the home enthusiast. (At least not until someone feels it is worthwhile to do pressure testing and publish data, much the way reloading manuals are done.)

IF my memory serves me right Savage had front stuffer model 110 they were selling for a vary short time that was designed for smokeless. I think it was just a passing fad like smokeless powder!

Powder companies have been experimenting for 200 years. Major advances have been made. Companies have already "dumbed down" smokeless for use in black powder guns. Some of the original bulk smokeless was very slow burning, but not enough for safe use in black powder guns

Why try to reinvent the wheel. There are many other things in ballistics and shooting that could use some trials and research.

Lunie, thank you for the info on that, I was unaware that you could get away with not crimping rifle cartridges. I'll be sure to get a hold of one of those books by Sierra. So if I'm understanding this correctly the crimp is to keep the bullet from being pushed into the case or pulling under recoil as well as making the rounds easier to chamber?

Shoot, when I reload .32 S&W with smokeless I'm not using anything but friction to keep my bullets in. The chamber on my revolver is stepped so bullets backing out of the cylinder and jamming the gun have never been a problem. I'm thinking that the small case capacity and stepped chambers are what make my rounds ignite 100% of the time. However I did not know you didn't have to crimp some cartridges, I thought this was just something that rednecks without the proper tools and dyes do.

boommer said:

IF my memory serves me right Savage had front stuffer model 110 they were selling for a vary short time that was designed for smokeless. I think it was just a passing fad like smokeless powder!

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I've got one of those. They are still making them in small numbers but are way backed up. They work great once you get the right combination of bullet, sabot, and powder worked out. They are barrel-heavy, however, and a pain to carry while walking/stalking.

They announced that they were discontinuing them a while back and they got hundreds of orders so they decided to raise the price and lower their production of them. I wish Ruger would do that with the Old Army.

boommer said:

IF my memory serves me right Savage had front stuffer model 110 they were selling for a vary short time that was designed for smokeless. I think it was just a passing fad like smokeless powder!

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They blew up with some regularity.

This is right up there with that thread in the rifle section that asks "can I fire .38 Super in a .357 magnum lever rifle" or the myriad of threads aking "can I shoot .45 Colt in my .410"? Use the gun as advertized. You wanna burn smokeless, I can recommend .308 or many other rounds. Yeah, I shoot bullseye in my Super Companion, NAA actually recommended it until the ATF got on their case about it, but the problem with smokeless in a big chamber is that to produce an equal pressure to BP, one must weigh the charge to the tenth grain. It does not work well with volumetric measurement. Oh, I've used those Lee scoops in the past, but with REDUCED charges and they aren't very consistent.

Think of it this way if no other way, you might survive a double charge of BP if you're shooting, say, 70 grains charge, but a double charge of 2400?

Nothing goes in MY BP rifles, but a suitable substitute since I can't readily buy BP anywhere near abouts. If it's performance you want, try 777.

And, well, I was already warm. It was 41 degrees this morning when I walked out to check my hog trap. I know that's not cold to northerners, but I did get a little chilled bein' a south Texas boy.

I imagine you could and it would work just fine if it was LAB TESTESTED..No labs have done that so its in my book with safe things to do in Vegas with 20 buck hookers. Plus you will get pic of blowed up 50 rolling blocks that loaded with 500 nitro experss loads says only shoot BP..Forrest Gump is still alive and on line too.

Elmer Keith said NO to smokeless powder in any black powder revolver.

Dr_B said:

Elmer Keith said NO to smokeless powder in any black powder revolver.

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I recall he blew up more than a few while coming to this decision.