Kit BP gun questions

[azredhawk44]

Hi! Long time shooter, first time to consider BP/kit guns.

How difficult are these to assemble? I saw the thread about the Harper's Ferry gun and it got me thinking it might be a fun toy.

I am reasonably competent with sandpaper, files, screwdrivers, etc. I load my own cartridges for smokeless powder in .30-30, .357mag, .44mag, .400corbon and .45acp and am very meticulous with that. I understand that BP is VERY different than smokeless.

I'd like to get a .50 caliber cap-and-ball Hawkens rifle. Would it be worth my while to get a kit, or should I just order from Cabela's or somewhere and forget building it myself?

BTW, I love knowing how things work. If it takes a month to complete, then that's fine. If I have to do research and ask lots of questions, that's fine.

 

[ArmedBear]

Hi! Long time shooter, first time to consider BP/kit guns.

How difficult are these to assemble? I saw the thread about the Harper's Ferry gun and it got me thinking it might be a fun toy.

I am reasonably competent with sandpaper, files, screwdrivers, etc. I load my own cartridges for smokeless powder in .30-30, .357mag, .44mag, .400corbon and .45acp and am very meticulous with that. I understand that BP is VERY different than smokeless.

I'd like to get a .50 caliber cap-and-ball Hawkens rifle. Would it be worth my while to get a kit, or should I just order from Cabela's or somewhere and forget building it myself?

BTW, I love knowing how things work. If it takes a month to complete, then that's fine. If I have to do research and ask lots of questions, that's fine.

If you're patient and have a workbench with a good vise, you can do it. I did it as a teenager, with Dad's tools and some of his advice. Turns out he's not the best fine woodworker; I was better at it. He's an engineer and skilled machinist (retired) now a jeweler (one-of a kind pieces).

There are a few reasons to get a kit, IMO.

1. Feeling of accomplishment and pride. My old Hawken from 25 years ago still hangs in my living room.
2. Brown finish. Blueing a pre-1850 muzzleloader is just wrong, historically, and aesthetically. It's easy to brown it yourself with a hand-held propane torch and patience.
3. Oiled-finish wood. You can spend all the time you want soaking it to bring out the grain, fine-sanding it, then doing it again, until you have a beautiful piece of wood.

Thoughts...

Avoid the brass-furnished abortions that are called "Hawkens." I have an example of the first one introduced, the Thompson/Center. I browned it, even the sights, and now that it's been 25 years so the brass has a dark patina, it finally looks something like an actual Hawken.

While they look "traditional", those guns were the first "modern muzzleloaders." They have some modern features, like fully-adjustable sights, and a neat quick-disconnect breech for easy cleaning. Hunters loved 'em and their siblings the Renegades, 25 years ago. They were practical muzzleloaders for the field. And they still are.

But for aesthetics, they fall short. Their barrels are too short, their stocks are blocky, and their triggerguards and other furniture, along with being made of the wrong metal, lack the sleek, beautiful style of a real Hawken rifle.

This shop sells high-end kits and rifles, and has a number of pictures of the real thing. It's something to peruse, but don't be discouraged: you can build a nice Hawken rifle without spending so much.

http://www.thehawkenshop.com/

Also look here. http://www.trackofthewolf.com/index.aspx

You can get an authentic Hawken kit for around 300 bucks. The Lyman Great Plains rifle is a good repro of a Hawken design.

http://www.lymanproducts.com/lymanproducts/rifles.htm

This place has the kits for $309.

http://www.tjgeneralstore.com/lyman.htm

The Lyman isn't curly maple, etc. There's a reason the Hawken Shop's guns are a lot more expensive: the biggest reason is usually the wood. But the Lyman is a quality piece and a great rifle.

Enjoy!

 

[azredhawk44]

Brown finish. Blueing a pre-1850 muzzleloader is just wrong, historically, and aesthetically. It's easy to brown it yourself with a hand-held propane torch and patience.

Okay, I've heard of "browning" vs "bluing". Can you enlighten me further?

I met a guy once who builds "old" muzzle loaders and he browned his barrels by somehow exposing them to a high-humidity, high-temperature environment with salt water as the basis of moisture (IIRC).

Doesn't this also rust or "Brown" the rifling inside? Would he have to also plug both ends of the barrel?

What exactly is the process you are advocating with the propane torch?

What's a good resource for all these questions I will have when building a percussion muzzleloader?

 

[ArmedBear]

The saltwater thing is amusing. I truly admire people who go through that sort of hassle in the name of authenticity.

But I've used the stuff from Birchwood Casey. "Plum Brown", down the page.

http://www.birchwoodcasey.com/sport/index.html

You heat up the barrel with a cheap torch, then swab it on. Steel wool the surface rust off, then do it again, and again. The barrel will soon have a nice brown finish. It's actually a coating of oxide, just like blueing, that stops rust with a little care.

It won't rust the bore unless you pour some in the bore.

There is a BP-only forum out there, but answers come quicker here.

I did this stuff long before the Internet, and the instructions supplied with the gun, plus those supplied by Birchwood Casey, and perhaps a book I picked up about the subject, gave me more info than I ever needed. For finishing the stock, I got one of these kits: http://www.birchwoodcasey.com/sport/index.html

It gives complete instructions, sandpaper, etc., for relatively cheap. Once you know what abrasives and chemicals you like, you can easily pick up additional sandpaper, steel wool, and finish. Wal-Mart has the kits, AFAIK.

 

[ArmedBear]

Browning was the original oxide finish. Blueing, also an oxide finish, came along in the mid 19th century. Old guns tend to turn brown, even if they started blue. But really old guns, like muzzleloaders, were originally either left unfinished and developed a brown rust patina, or browned deliberately.

Blue vs. Brown finish, on a Sharps Rifle.

 

[mec]

You can even use boiling water to heat the metal for browning. The birchwood casey stuff seems to start working as the metal actually starts to cool down. Multiple applications until it is the ideal shade.

Another advantage of a kit is that you can draw file the literature off the flats of the barrel. Even the deep and volumunious readme doc on the side of the Lyman Great Plains rifle isnt' too hard to remove. Just knowing thenames of all the tools and supplies you mentioned above makes you more competent than I am. I just did this old JuKar Kit. The main trick was to get enough stain into the wood to hide some of the wierd grain patterns.

 

[Thefabulousfink]

I would suggest that you start with a pistol, they are cheeper, simpler, and take less time to build. My first BP gun was a Traditions trapper pistol that I built from a kit when I was 16. Some kits (like Traditions) require little more than screwing the parts together to get it to fire. The amount of sanding, carving, filing, or staining is up to you. My first kit took a very small amount of work w/ a chisle to fit the lock and trigger gaurd, and quite a bit of sanding to get the but-cap and other brass to fit flush. Some kits (like those on track of the wolf http://www.trackofthewolf.com) take a lot of carving and inletting, but most of the cheeper kits are very simple.It took me about three full days start to finish and is a great little shooter.

the only tool that you should need are:
screwdrivers
metal file
carving chisels (v-gouge, fishtail, etc)
sandpaper (medium to very fine)
steel wool
staining and blueing/browing supplies.

Building your own gun is very rewarding, and if you put some time into it, even your first gun can come out looking very nice.

good luck