I can't seem to get a good 9mm load (I have a few general reloading questions here)

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Schwing

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I have been reloading for about a year now and have had some great successes and some pretty discouraging failures. I have been able to get some .38, .357 and .45 reloads that, I am proud to say, are better than my factory loads. I have, however, been unsuccessful in getting a 9mm load that is even close to consistent or accurate.

I have had a heck of a time getting 9mm projectiles and, so far, have only been able to test out 2 different kinds.

I want to blame it on my bullets but am not totally convinced. When I first started out, I got a steal of a deal on some Israeli surplus 124 grain lead bullets. I have only been able to get unique powder and have tested these loads from 3.7 all the way up to 6 grains. I get the best accuracy at around 5.5 grains but am still getting groupings that are about 3" from 12 yards away (from a rest so it ain't my wobbling). I have also tested these using my PX4 subcompact, my 92fs and my Western Family Hi point 995 carbine and get bad results with all of them. I had never bothered to check the diameter on these but, after i did, i found that they are actually .354 instead of .355. Does that account for this? Also, if that is my problem, is there any way to improve accuracy (I was thinking of trying a coat of ALOX or something along those lines.)? I would just forget them and move on but, being a sucker, I ended up with about 6,000 of them.

I have also tried some 9mm 125 grain rnbb bullets from this heavymetalbullets.com website. I have had about the same luck as my other bullets having already tested between 3.7 and 6 grains of unique. They are a little more accurate but not by much. I would also add that both of these projectiles get frequent rogue shots that are 6" to 12" off in random directions at the same distance from the target. Does anyone have any experience with these? Their .38/357 projectiles seem to be pretty awesome but I don't know whether to blame the 9mm on me or the projectiles.
 
I had never bothered to check the diameter on these but, after i did, i found that they are actually .354 instead of .355.
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That seems way too small of a diameter for 9mm cast bullets. My bore slugged out at .356, so I use a .3575 bullet. You need it larger than the bore, which you probably already know. I've never heard of one with a bore as small as .354.

Also, are they leading your bores? It would seem to me that they would have to be. If so, that could explain why the other bullets weren't accurate either. If it starts leading bad enough, you will essentially have a smooth bore. It's worth looking at.
 
I think they must have been custom made for the Israeli military. I remember reading somewhere that they used to carry some Uzis that used a slightly smaller 9mm round... no good reason was mentioned as to why.
 
I had never bothered to check the diameter on these but, after i did, i found that they are actually .354 instead of .355. Does that account for this? Also, if that is my problem, is there any way to improve accuracy (I was thinking of trying a coat of ALOX or something along those lines.)? I would just forget them and move on but, being a sucker, I ended up with about 6,000 of them.
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Like said above, that slightly smaller diameter bullet can easily cause the inaccuracy. ALOX will do nothing to improve the accuracy IMO and will only serve to add smoke to your shooting session. I would not say you are a sucker for buying 6000 of these bullets. Even though they are not extremely accurate they can still be fired and used for practice. Since bullets are so hard to find I would think a stash of 6000 for practice would be comforting, even though you can show off the targets! lol
 
You may try adjusting the way you size your brass. With those undersize bullets I would try,,,,
Punch out the primer first. Then size. Skip the neck expansion die, and try seating a bullet. If you cannot without shaving lead, go to your expansion die and see just how little of the expander plug you can get away with and barely seat a bullet, seat the bullet out as far as you can, 1.169". Try this dummy cartridge several times (no primer or powder) for function, even tap the nose on the table a few times to make sure you have no chance of setback, as you do not want a crimp, a crimp will only reduce lead bullet diameter further. Adjust length for feeding reliability and load up a few, hope this helps,
Also, try weighing each charge of a test batch. Unique is known for varying weights in some powder measures. 0.5gr in a 9mm case is about a 10% change in charge weight.
 
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Have you weighed the bullets they might not be all the same weight. That could be one of the problems.I was given some surplus dud 9mm and they were all over the place.
 
Yeah, try different bullets. I use Ranier or Berry's plated 124 grain, round nose with 4.1 grains of Titegroup. Accurate load.

What OAL are you using?
 
I had nothing but trouble loading 9mm lead bullets. I long ago quit lead and went plated or FMJ. Berrys 124 gr plated work very well in all MY 9mm's from full size Sig 226, down to Kahr PM9, with 5.0 Unique or 4.0 Titegroup.
 
I have use both the 124 gr. JHP and CMJ from Montana Gold with excellent results using either WSF or Bullseye powder.
 
9mm is an easy caliber to reload, the easiest probably being 38spl. I use 4.2 grains of Bullseye for 115 to 125 grain bullets, regardless of type. This gives a stout, but not hot load. Run the round through a Lee factory crimp die and you've got great ammo.
 
Pilot said:
Yeah, try different bullets. I use Ranier or Berry's plated 124 grain, round nose with 4.1 grains of Titegroup. Accurate load.

What OAL are you using?
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I can't remember the OAL. I am at work so i will have to look at my notes. Completely noobie question here but: I know that oal effects the pressure and how well the rounds will cycle but does it impact accuracy at all?
 
ap55 said:
Have you weighed the bullets they might not be all the same weight. That could be one of the problems.I was given some surplus dud 9mm and they were all over the place.
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I actually did weigh a few and they are spot on 124 grain. That is one of the reasons I am having a hard time moving on. They are perfect (no ridges or lube boogers.) I did some digging and found some articles that claim the Israeli's used some .354 9mm Uzi barrels back in the 80s and 90s. I think this was some left over stuff from that era.
 
Schwing said:
I can't remember the OAL. I am at work so i will have to look at my notes. Completely noobie question here but: I know that oal effects the pressure and how well the rounds will cycle but does it impact accuracy at all?
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That would be an affirmative with rifle ammo. At 7-15 yards for normal pistol use its probably a waste of time to experiment with OAL.
 
If these were mine, and I wanted to see if I could get better accuracy, I would see if something close to a max load of faster powder might give the bullet enough of a "kick in the pants" so to speak to "squish" a little and grip the rifling.
You say that you are getting better results at a stiffer loading of unique, which is why I suggest this. I have developed some .38 spcl loads using a since discontinued .356466 mold from lyman, that wouldn't shoot worth beans in a load less than max load in a .38. The mold drops bullets with a diameter right at .356", and was apparently used for .357 magnum velocities using a softer alloy lead that would deform into the rifling.
My next step if I had those bullets would be to experiment and get a faster powder like red dot, promo, or clays, and start developing a load, hoping to see better results as I get closer to max listed loads.
Just a suggestion though, I have no idea if it would actually work, but that's where I would go from there with those bullets.
 
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They are rattling down the barrel. You could try paper patching a few rounds to see if that helps. Anything to get the bullets to ride down the barrel and engage your rifling would help.
 
I agree with undersized bullets being part of the problem, but they should be leaving the bore leaded up in my experience. Has that been an issue?

But I heartily disagree with the Count about 9mm being easy to load for. It has been the hardest bullet I have ever loaded for. A tiny high pressure round with a tapered case, gah. At least the OP is not getting tumbling and excessive leading like I was for a long time. 9m seems to be hit and miss for folks. Some seem to have no problems, some seem to fight for years, then finally give up. I finally found 4 grains of wsf under a .358 sized 125grn lead wheel weight bullet using a 38s&w long expander plug gives me a clean-ish bore and 2-3" at 10-12 yds. It's not great but I'll take it for now.
 
I ended up with about 6,000 of them
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Would it be worth your while to invest in a bullet mold and other necessary accessories so you can melt down your stockpile of undersize bullets and whip up some larger diameter bullets? I'm not familiar with the bullet molding process, so maybe it isn't a viable solution, but I thought I'd throw it out there.

Good luck!
 
I am actually going to hang onto them for awhile. A friend of mine has an idea to use them for .380s by dropping the weight on them about 20 grains. We are going to get together in my shop on Saturday and see if we can make up a housing to grind them down into semi wad cutters. I have some pretty cool stuff available to me (my dad made his living doing cnc milling) so I am not ready to give up yet.
 
Out of curiosity, and probably openly flaunting my lack of knowledge, would it be possible to use gas checks on these? Would that do anything to increase accuracy?

In response to a couple of replies here, I have seen some leading with these but not as much as I would have thought given the diameter. A quick cleaning after each shoot takes care of it but, as already stated, they are so inaccurate that you can't even hit the paper 12 yards away.
 
First thing I'd do is pull a seated bullet and measure the base. When I was having fits with 9mm cast, I found out my cases were swaging the base of the bullets down to 3.53".

would also add that both of these projectiles get frequent rogue shots that are 6" to 12" off in random directions at the same distance from the target. Does anyone have any experience with these?
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That's about what was happening with mine... at maybe 15-20 yards. At 100 yards, they would veer off into a 30+ foot circle.

I got a new expander plug that would expand the case farther down, and now these bullets shoot great. Here's something you can try, today. Sort out all your reloads using Speer and R-P cases. These cases are thinner. If those shoot ok, it's your brass/flare that's the problem.

You'd think the taper of the 9mm case would mean that the ID of a case would get bigger the farther down you go. But in practice, it's often the brass just gets thicker to make up the difference. So when you size this case in a carbide die, the extra brass gets squished in, making the ID even smaller. The stock expander plug on my Lee 9mm expander barely did more than flare the mouth, leaving the thicker brass untouched. Many autoloader pistol expander dies are made like this; you might as well be using a universal flaring die. For cast, you want a proper expander die that will expand the entire area where the bullet sits (such as occurs with rifle expanders). You can't go wrong with a Lyman M die for your cast loads.

I've even run into 9mm cases that are made, by design, to seat only a specific 124 gr ball. Try to seat any deeper without properly expanding, and there's a ridge in the case that will destroy your bullet.

Yes, it's possible to use gas checks specifically labeled as "plain base" gas checks. They're usually made from aluminum cans.

A final tip. To get the bullets to bump up, try a faster powder. Also try making your OAL as long as possible, to where the bullet doesn't have so much freebore to jump.
 
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