Vintage law enforcement rifles

Interesting. Per the Guns & Ammo Book "Guns and the Gunfighters" the Model 8 in .35 Remington was the rifle he used. I will research it more.

Thanks for the info,
LeonCarr

You owe it to yourself and your gun to get an original 10 round magazine. The magazines are the finest magazines I have ever seen. They even have a roller bearing on the front of the follower and a spring that takes 2 men and a boy to load that last round.

The 1905 Winchester magazines were hand fitted to the individual rifle. If you wanted an extra or replacement magazine you sent the rifle back to the factory for fitting

Look at your original 07 magazine on the back. You will see 3 small "dots" on the backside up near the top. I would like to know why they are there. I've been told that means they were fitted to a gun, but I doubt it.

BigG said:

Kalashnikov copied John Browning's trigger - hammer group and perhaps more out of the Model 8 or 81 Remington for the AK type rifle.

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It is soviet...they copy everything....or stole....or made germans come up with the idea.

As far as Mr. K coming up with the idea....yea...right...never in a million years will I buy that a nobody from nowhere got a new thing through the soviet political system that quickly if at all....but that is for another thread.

Everything new builds upon what came before. That said there is a big difference in building on what came before and an out right copy...see Soviet Bull bomber for example.

There is a Remington 81 on the used rack at my LGS with a $400 price tag. I'm sorely tempted to go drop it on layaway because of this thread.

cat9x - where did those rifles come from? Were they issued by an agency?

A Model 8 in .35 Remington with an extended magazine was the rifle used by Frank Hamer to kill Bonnie & Clyde, along with lots more shots fired from rifles and shotguns used by posse members.

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LeonCarr,

I made a video discussing why the Police Model 8 @ the ambush claim is almost certainly false. Most of the supposed facts have been refuted, though unfortunately they keep being repeated even by authorities like "American Rifleman" and "Guns & Ammo". You can check it out at the link below if you'd like.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4nYGLzHaifw

One of the rifles in the picture was originally issued to the Arkansas State Police (30Rem caliber), the other was a custom built replica of the originals in 35Rem caliber. They're both owned by a friend of mine.

And in regards to Mr. K having his hands on a Model 8? Who could know?, but there's the possibility he could have looked at a Fabrique Nationale Modele 1900...the Belgian-made twin of the Model 8. These were sold all over the world.

Wow...interesting stuff.

Any idea what Frank Hamer had?

I have not watched the video yet.

Thanks a bunch,
LeonCarr

The earliest account, that I know of, listing who carried what firearm is from Sheriff Jordan during his interview with True Detective Magazine, November 1934. His list directly corresponds to the photographs we have of the firearms on top of Bonnie & Clyde's car at the ambush site (as pictured in my video link above). I believe these two pieces of evidence are the most accurate in determining the firearms used by the ambush posse, not books written 30+ years after the ambush.

These are just my thoughts and opinions though LeonCarr! They're not gospel. Anyways here's Sheriff's Jordan's own words...

"Deputy Hinton was armed with a Browning automatic rifle. Deputy Alcorn, Captain Hamer and Patrolman Gault were armed with automatic shotguns loaded with buckshot. Deputy Oakley and I were carrying Remington automatic rifles and there was a third rifle of that type available for use. All of us, of course, were carrying our regular sidearms." - True Detective Magazine, November 1934

Regardless of what they used the mission was completed and the bad guy's car never ran again .

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

I used to know a retired leo from Missouri or Kansas (maybe Kansas City). He carried an 07 in a scabbard on his motorcycle. It was a dept. issued weapon. I know the prison in Utah had 7 07's and 7 97's up till the early 80's. I don't remember the prison.

Sacramento P D had a few thompsons when I was there between 68-86.

LeonCarr said:

Regardless of what they used the mission was completed and the bad guy's car never ran again .

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

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And that in part was the problem....If you have ever worked on a car of that vintage you can make about 20 2013 F150 trucks from one fender. Those things had some metal in them....and thick.

Adoc & 351

The Arkansas department of Corrections used the 351's for the guards, and on horseback.
Not all of the after market 351 mags have the bearing. I have, I think, 2 of the factory original 10 round mags & 1 aftermarket with no bearing. Cant remember whether it's 1 or 2. They were my dad's.
I have 8 boxes of cartridges. Worth too much to shoot.
You can make hulls from 357 maximum cases.
I found a box of new unprimed brass at a gs a couple of years ago.

During a 4th of July Parade in my hometown one year they had the Bonnie & Clyde Car on a trailer. They paraded it through town then they would stop in a parking lot, charge admission, and you could look at it up close. 107 bullet holes.

Supposedly Bonnie was hit 50 times and Clyde was hit 27.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

That's good stuff right there cat9. Thanks for that. Your post sent me on a YouTube journey of Bonnie & Clyde.
My take away is that every single firearm of choice was the design of JMB. The A5 shotgun looked to be a strong preference by both sides. Hinton's BAR (and "1 box of ammo" however much that was then) must have leveled the field for the posse. They made their shots count.... Over and over....
Unless there is other evidence to the contrary, there is no way that model 81 is the gun used by Hammer in the shoot out.

Edit:
The holes in the car makes me think that the A5 and buckshot was the most destructive or commonly used. Probably more available as well.

Yes but of the 4 shooters only one was armed with a BAR and one with a Remington model 8. The rest were armed with an A5 it seems.
Bare in mind the roof of the car shows 5 shooters. Of those 3 look to have been using buckshot.
Who was the 5th shooter? No idea. There is a lot about the scene that may have been staged.

In August, 1966, all that the Austin PD had were the .351s. Since the odds were that few had any training with them, and the closest to the university tower with a chance of a hit was around 400 yards, Charles Whitman was only bothered by deer hunters--who, fortunately, did quite well in ending his effective shooting and making his end possible.

The 07 Winchesters were more expensive than their model 70. They are actually pretty simple, well made and dead nuts reliable. Col. Charles Atkins was rumored to have liked his. The Border Patrol had some .351 ammo that made it's way to Customs and I got it pretty darn cheap.
These rifles went with my Grandfather in the Mexican Campaign with Gen. Pershing prior to WWI for use in their aircraft.
There is a lot of history for these guns, considering Winchester only made about 58,000 when production ceased around 1957. I bought my first one around 1980 or so only to find out that Winchester and Remington no longer made ammo. My first box cost me a whopping $9.
When Winchester quit making their ammo it retailed for $40. per box of 50. Winchester loaded their ammo to the max and it's not uncommon for these old cases to split when fired, but they pack one heck of a punch up close. The brassfetcher tested the .351 in ballistic gel. slow motion. WWW.BRASSFETCHER.COM.

Dr. Rob said:

You know if I could find one of those in an available caliber like 35 Remington it might be a fun rifle to have!

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And ammo is still pretty available in .35 Remington. A great rifle isn't as much fun if you have to go through unendurable hardship to find ammo for it.