.30-.30 small vertical neck cracks near the shoulder

[Master Blaster]

Hi All I was hoping for a little help with an issue that has cropped up with some old factory remington ammo from about 1997. This is 150 grain corelocked ammo 2400 fps. Yesterday my son and I went out and fired 40 rounds of this ammo and noticed small vertical neck cracks just above the shoulder in 12 out of the 40 cases we fired. Happened in both our model 94 winchester rifles one 2002 vintage and the other 1981 vintage. Both rifles are hardly ever fired before this.

I doubt it is an issue with the rifles. I only noticed the cracks prior to putting the brass in the tumbler to clean. We will be loading 150 grain lead bullets with 11 gr trailboss for our planned load. THE cracks were on the first firing of FACTORY ammo no reloads.

So is this to be expected with the .30-.30 and factory remington ammo?

 

[rcmodel]

No, not to be 'expected' for sure.

Bad brass.
Toss it.

If it cracks further back it will ruin your day.

rc

 

[Slamfire]

I am of the opinion that this is due to gunpowder deterioration. As gunpowder breaks down it outgasses NOx, one by product is nitric acid gas. Case necks are highly stressed to begin with and the nitric acid gas attacks it, and weakens it. I have had lots of cracked case necks with old military surplus powder, the stuff had been scrapped because it was at the end of its shelf life and over half of it went bad. One jug had fuming nitric acid gas coming out of the top.

The rule of thumb for the safe lifetime of gunpowder is 45 years for single based, 20 years for double based. This is wrong more often than it is right, but it provides guidance. Your ammunition is from 1997, so it should have lasted longer, but guess what, sometimes bad things happen.

Federal says their ammunition has a ten year shelf life:

Federal Ammunition :
http://www.federalpremium.com/company/faq.aspx

What is the shelf life of ammo and storage?
Store reloading components and ammunition in a cool, dry place, protected from direct exposure to sunlight. If stored properly there is a 10-year shelf life on loaded ammunition.

 

[Master Blaster]

I have been shooting Radway green from 1986 in 5.56 and South AFRICAN SURPLUS .308 from 1979 with no issues. I would be surprised if it's a shelf life issue.

 

[WestKentucky]

Sounds a bit funky. Another trip to the range may solve the mystery. If one gun has cracks and the other doesn't it may be a gun issue. If one box of ammo cracks and other doesn't it's an ammo issue. Find the one variable that brings out cracks and you have your culprit.

 

[Boho]

I have seen that many times. Both factory and reloads. I have only seen it with RP brass. Nothing wrong with my gun just RP brass apparently.

 

[Kernel]

Compare a fired case to an unfired cases. Note how far the the shoulder has moved forward after firing. Case stretching is notorious in the .30-30. Because the round headspaces on the rim, gun manufactures cut the chambers a little on the long side. Add to that the fact .30-30 brass is kinda thin to begin with, and RP maybe didn't anneal that lot as much as they should of. I've got RP .30-30 bass that's been loaded many times, so they can make a good case when they want to. I mostly shoot Winchester brass, but all brands are subject to cracking on the necks like that after repeated use.

 

[blarby]

Sounds a bit funky. Another trip to the range may solve the mystery. If one gun has cracks and the other doesn't it may be a gun issue. If one box of ammo cracks and other doesn't it's an ammo issue. Find the one variable that brings out cracks and you have your culprit.

^^^ good advice^^^

FWIW, when I loaded 30-30, I prefered winchester and RP brass over federal because of this very issue.

It could just be a bad lot of brass, but check the rifles just to be sure.

 

[Centaur 1]

Compare a fired case to an unfired cases. Note how far the the shoulder has moved forward after firing. Case stretching is notorious in the .30-30. Because the round headspaces on the rim, gun manufactures cut the chambers a little on the long side. Add to that the fact .30-30 brass is kinda thin to begin with, and RP maybe didn't anneal that lot as much as they should of. I've got RP .30-30 bass that's been loaded many times, so they can make a good case when they want to. I mostly shoot Winchester brass, but all brands are subject to cracking on the necks like that after repeated use.

This so true. Since the cartridge doesn't headspace on the shoulder, gun manufacturers tend to get sloppy with chamber depth. I have a Marlin 336 with a tight chamber and a Rossi Rio Grande that is right at max on the rim thickness and the shoulder is even deeper. I need to keep fired cases from the two rifles separate, and I only bump the shoulder back .002" - .003". If I set the sizing die so it contacts the shell holder like the instructions say to do, my cases would split like that after just a few loadings.

 

[Master Blaster]

I compared a fired case with the crack to an unfired round, the shoulder had not moved forward at all. So I do believe it is defective brass. I plan to contact Remington and see what they will do for me. Thankfully no damage to the guns. BTW the lot and date indicates 1999. The ammo has been stored properly in my armory, where it is cool and dry so it should still be just fine.

 

[gamestalker]

According to your post, this is factory ammunition, not reloads, correct? If so, and the problem is presenting in both firearms, it's just about certain to be an ammunition problem.

GS

 

[Slamfire]

I have been shooting Radway green from 1986 in 5.56 and South AFRICAN SURPLUS .308 from 1979 with no issues. I would be surprised if it's a shelf life issue.

Ever thought why that ammunition was surplused? It is not day old bread simply tossed out while it is still good. That ammunition was dumped by its owner organization for two simple reasons: It was unsafe to issue and unsafe to store. When ammunition ages, that is the gunpowder ages, malfunctions increase, but also problems created by old gunpowder. Not only hangfires, misfires, but also, firearm blowups. It is called burn rate instability. The stuff will also auto combustion at the end of its shelf life. Militaries scrap the stuff, not because it is not shiny anymore, but because they don’t want to issue ammunition that does not go bang reliably, blows up guns, and blows up depots. Someone with more knowledge than you or I went through that lot of ammunition and found enough defective indications, such as deteriorated gunpowder, that his written procedures dictated that the lot should be scrapped.

The Army that had that stuff did not want it anymore.

You come along, think it is bargain, wish it was perfect, never think why it was sold cheap, and shoot away. Well given enough rounds, you might hit that improbable high pressure round.

I would like a good thermodynamic reason why out of all the substances in the Universe, gunpowder is the only one that is immortal. Mountains decay, stars burn out, but gunpowder is perfect forever. Why is that?

 

[blarby]

Why is that?

The force of ignorance is the greatest power as yet known to humanity.

Like the dark side, it needs the guiding light of men like you to hold it at bay constantly- and we appreciate it

 

[Slamfire]

Why is that?

The force of ignorance is the greatest power as yet known to humanity.

Like the dark side, it needs the guiding light of men like you to hold it at bay constantly- and we appreciate it

Thanks, but I think I was a little too “Old Testament” in my reply. I do get riled at times, you know to be told that old gunpowder can’t be the problem because someone has not, yet, lost their game of Russian Roulette with old ammunition, Ok, maybe I should have waited a bit before replying.

Here is a document in the public domain that addresses gunpowder and stabilizers:

ROLE OF DIPHENYLAMINE AS A STABILIZER IN PROPELLANTS;ANALYTICAL CHEMISTRY OF IPHENYLAMINE IN PROPELLANTS

Nitrocellulose-base propellants are essentially unstable materials that decompose on aging with the evolution of oxides of nitrogen. The decomposition is autocatalytic and can lead to failure of the ammunition or disastrous explosions.

http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/783499.pdf

 

[gamestalker]

I was totally unaware that powder can become unstable with age? I was under the impression that powder can degrade with age, thus producing low pressures or failing to ignite, but I didn't know it could produce explosive conditions.

I sure hope the stock piles of old ammunition I have that is stored right next to the large stock pile of old primers, doesn't one day sympathetically detonate due to old age.

GS

 

[Slamfire]

Single base and double base powders have a shelf life. This section from the Dec 2003 Propellant Management Guide explains this very well:

Stabilizers are chemical ingredients added to propellant at time of manufacture to decrease the rate of propellant degradation and reduce the probability of auto ignition during its expected useful life.

As nitrocellulose-based propellants decompose, they release nitrogen oxides. If the nitrogen oxides are left free to react in the propellant, they can react with the nitrate ester, causing further decomposition and additional release of nitrogen oxides. The reaction between the nitrate ester and the nitrogen oxides is exothermic (i.e., the reaction produces heat). Heat increases the rate of propellant decomposition. More importantly, the exothermic nature of the reaction creates a problem if sufficient heat is generated to initiate combustion. Chemical additives, referred to as stabilizers, are added to propellant formulations to react with free nitrogen oxides to prevent their attack on the nitrate esters in the propellant. The stabilizers are scavengers that act rather like sponges, and once they become “saturated” they are no longer able to remove nitrogen oxides from the propellant. Self-heating of the propellant can occur unabated at the “saturation” point without the ameliorating effect of the stabilizer. Once begun, the self-heating may become sufficient to cause auto ignition.

Militaries have chemical labs and perform sophisticated tests on all sorts of nitrocellulose based “propellants” , Mil Std 286 describes most of the tests. http://www.everyspec.com/MIL-STD/MIL-STD-0100-0299/MIL-STD-286C_8618/ . For us, we can detect the gross indications of powder deterioration only through smell and sight. If the powder smells bitter and if the powder has fuming red nitric acid gas coming out, the powder was bad a long time ago. Powder this old and bad is a risk for autocombustion if stored in bulk. It less likely to catch fire if it is in the case because the case wicks heat away, but it is still a fire risk.

Military Surplus Powder autocombusting

http://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=6&f=3&t=248538

I run a long range shooting club here in NM. Yesterday a member approached me with a question about a powder he is using. He said " it's fuming" ........What?

I walked down and sure enough the powder was outgassing a very heavy oder of ammonia and Nitric Acid fumes. The powder was slowly turning sticky and had,from over night, corroded the brass cases and the projectiles.
This powder is milsurp pull down IMR-5010 powder that was sold in bulk from the long gone Talon company. Weidners and Pats reloading sells this powder in black plastic 8 pound jugs. There are no lot numbers or dates on the label.

I have been reloading since 1964 and have never seen this happen before. As you know nitro-cellulose uses Nitric Acid to make the propellant. Some how the acid was not neutralized correctly. When the acid is not removed from the powder grains, the deterent coating will break down and uncontrolled burning will happen. The powder may detonate rather than burn

If any of you have any powder that was OK a few months ago you may want to check it again. This powder was normal just last winter. Now it is breaking down. It was stored in a cool room. It was not left in the sunlight.

Chris at Weiders has been notified.

This was purely a PULLDOWN powder issue. NOT a Virgin IMR-5010 issue. I know the guy this allegedly happened to (Paul A. of Albuquerque). I suggested he post the source, acquisition date, etc but to date he has not. He told me the powder was PULLDOWN IMR-5010 from www.wideners.com. Wideners allegedly told him they would not replace the powder as his storage of it was beyond their control. Also, he had no direct status with them as he obtained this particular jug from another guy that had bought it from wideners.

I personally know the guy this happened to and unless you see some sort of acrid fumes coming off your powder, I wouldn't worry about it. Paul is a real cheap skate. He was loading $2.00 Lehigh 800 grainers with surplus powder. Silly way to save $0.25.

http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?52892-Warning-surplus-IMR-5010-powder-users

1. 10-02-2009, 11:02 AM#6
Cincinnati Kid
Platinum Bullet Member
Join Date
Dec 1969
Location
Cincinnati, Ohio
Posts
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That IMR 5010 powder that came from Talon has caused several large fires here in Ohio, two of them locally to a friend of mine, and one large fire in Northern Ohio that I know of. Anyone who has any of that 5010 powder that came from Talon needs to dispose of it if it shows any signs of breaking down. I wouldn't trust any of it.

Old gunpowder, at the end of its life, will blow up your gun. Powder lifetime is decreased by heat, heat is used to rapidly age gunpowder for testing purposes, and this report shows how pressure spikes when gunpowder is at the end of its lifetime.

INVESTIGATION OF THE BALLISTIC AND CHEMICAL STABILITY OF 7.62MM AMMUNITION LOADED WITH BALL AND IMR PROPELLANT

Frankfort Arsenal 1962

3. Effects of Accelerated Storage Propellant and Primer Performance

To determine the effect of accelerated isothermal storage upon propellant and primer performance, sixty cartridges from each of lots E (WC 846) and G (R 1475) were removed from 150F storage after 26 and 42 weeks, respectively. The bullets were then removed from half the cartridges of each lot and from an equal number of each lot previously stored at 70F. The propellants were then interchanged, the bullets re-inserted, and the cases recrimped. Thus, four variations of stored components were obtained with each lot.

Chamber pressures yielded by ammunition incorporating these four variations were as follows. These values represent averages of 20 firings.




If you ammunition ever looks like this, don’t fire it!

Corrosion like I have never seen http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=542632

I inherited a bit of ammo when my Father died, and among that cache was a box of Norma 220gr .30-06 (from the 60's by the look of the box)...

I pulled them out to look at them this AM, and this is what I found:

Five out of 16 rounds have this corrosion on them...On two, the corrosion has expanded the case below the bullet to the extent where the brass ruptured...This box was stored bullet down for decades at Dad's, and for a few years now here...They had a cardboard divider in the box so none touched, and there is no sign of water damage to the box or divider...I have looked through the rest of the 06 ammo boxes, and all are pristine like they came from the factories yesterday (but none are Norma)...

What the heck am I seeing here?

Is this corrosive primers gone bad and dripped through the powder to the base of the bullet and then eaten through, or is this deteriorating powder fuming through the case?

I obviously am not going to fire any of these rounds, but are they even safe to subject to bullet pulling in an impact puller???

I'd love to salvage the bullets at least...

Any help or opinions would be appreciated

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