WI:Appleton Officers Violate Rights of Two Open Carriers on Tape

S&W620 said:

As others have stated, play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

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And a nice fat settlement from the City for violating their Rights!

Gee! A few thousand dollars for sitting in a police car for less than an hour in handcuffs.... Where do I sign up!

I absolutely believe the cops should stop the guys and ask them a question or two. No problem with that. "Hey, How are you guys?" types of questions designed to get a response that could indicate some criminal intent or lack thereof. If the guys had criminal intent then the reaction would probably have been a lot different. If they see a guy standing outside a convenience store with a gun in a holster and a ski mask in the other hand then I think "reasonable cause" comes into play. Reasonable cause here? Doesn't appear to be any.
The reactions of the guys carrying should have immediately indicated to the cops that they were not going to be a problem. Cops should have said thank you and moved on. If they were really worried about some crimes about to be committed then they are fine but going on a "fishing" expedition and trying to look for SOME reason to get these guys is my problem.
I have great respect for our LEOs and I understand the dilemma they face. Citizen A calls in a complaint and they have to investigate. That is how it should be. When they see a person that they THINK is drunk driving or drunk in public then they have a duty to look into it but, once they have determined that there is no crime, they should say thank you and move on. I was puled over once because a cop said I had crossed the center line. He was fishing for a DUI no doubt but he looked at me, asked a question and said thank you. He did his job.

In this case the cops definitely overstepped the boundaries and I really hope they are removed from their jobs. Turning off a camera SHOULD have that guy behind bars. Gaining monetarily from this event should not be the goal of the guys exercising their rights. Sending a message should be their goal and I hope they will succeed.

powder said:

I work in the Criminal Justice systems-nowhere NEAR your sidelines buddy, and your armchair which you quarterback 2A activism scenarios from. Actually, I open carry long guns at work, on public property, and private property so you'll draw a squib on that end of your "debate".

We have no "difference of opinion", as you want to water your end down with. "Use it, or lose it" is a term which applies to many scenarios, and parts of your anatomy.

Oh, no comment on the APP confiscation teams in CA right now, momentarily funded with $24 Million in Federal tax dollars, which is just a beta test for the rest of the country?

If you want to allow the meaning of RKBA to be watered down to....? What is allowable/acceptable to you, per the 2A? You disagree with the (2) fellows in Appleton, so what is the acceptable 2A standard to you, that none of us should step beyond in order to maintain our rights, INYHO? Seriously,please reply in a civil manner.

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Just so I have this straight, the only thing you know about me is that I think open carrying a gun is dumb, but you seem pretty certain that I simply armchair qb gun rights, etc, etc. Fact is, you have literally no idea what you're talking about in that regard, one way or another.

You open carry long guns all the time....at work...in uniform.....uh...ok? So should I now consider all cops to be open carry activists as well?

If a civil response is what you seek, referring to the person you are discussing something with as an armchair qb and spineless is a damned dumb way to go about it. You can't really take the high road, so to speak, after hurling insults slick.

I never said anything about what was and was not acceptable, simply that open carrying a long gun through town is dumb, attention seeking behavior that most folks who aren't gun nuts frown upon.

With that, I think I've clearly stated my opinion and read everyone else's. Going round and round with this isn't going to change anyone's mind so I think I'll leave it at that.

S&W620 said:

So..as pro 2A folks we should simply agree with you to make things easier for you to debate?

Reality is what it is. Do as you choose, but, please don't bitch about the end result when you've seen the same situation play out time and time again.

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So we spend more time criticizing the victims rather than those who have violated their rights?

In your world, the exercise of what other right(s) should be treated in such a matter by the government?

THe problem is not so much that they made a "Terry" stop, but the escalation to a 45 minute handcuffed detention without probable cause. They SPENT that time trying to develope/manufacture probable cause. That the officers are ignorant of the law or opposed to open carry is beside the point. IT IS THE LAW.

Bubba613 said:

It's not theoretically possible. It is possible. It would appear probable. Did they have means? Yes. Did they have motive? Yes. Did they have demonstrated intent? Maybe. That's going to add up to probable cause in someone's mind.

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Please tell me you are not a LEO.

S&W620 said:

Allowing a cop to look in my trunk isn't giving up any right at all, it's simply allowing a cop to look in my trunk, don't confuse the two.

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It most certainly is giving up a right. If it wasn't a right, the officer wouldn't have asked permission. You may certainly choose to do so and consent to a search - but you are relinquishing a right by doing so.

So in your mind there is no difference between a holstered pistol and a rifle? Interesting.

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That is EXACTLY right.

Your personal attacks on my integrity are hardly High Road. Try sticking to the topic.

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Your integrity? (Integrity: a concept of consistency of actions, values, methods, measures, principles, expectations, and outcomes.) How have I impugned your integrity? And what, of all the things I've said here, was not directly on topic to this conversation?

You've made what I consider some startling and unsupportable statements, and I've asked a few questions to try and figure out why you'd make such statements, but I've not maligned your integrity at all.

These guys are attention hounds and they got the attention they sought. I dont see a problem here.

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They are ACTIVISTS (and I suppose an activist is a kind of attention hound, with a purpose). They got the attention they probably assumed they would get, and that will provide a perfect position of "standing" to achieve the change they're working for.

I don't see a problem with that, myself! Glad we agree on something!

So in your mind there is no difference between a holstered pistol and a rifle? Interesting.
That is EXACTLY right.

Quote:
Your personal attacks on my integrity are hardly High Road. Try sticking to the topic.
Your integrity? (Integrity: a concept of consistency of actions, values, methods, measures, principles, expectations, and outcomes.) How have I impugned your integrity? And what, of all the things I've said here, was not directly on topic to this conversation?

You've made what I consider some startling and unsupportable statements, and I've asked a few questions to try and figure out why you'd make such statements, but I've not maligned your integrity at all.

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Well, I really cannot argue with someone who cannot distinguish a handgun from a long gun. Nor someone who cannot take responsibility for his actions.
Good luck with it all.

Handguns are used for hundreds of times more crimes and murders than rifles each year in the US.

And I would wager money that concealed handguns are used thousands of times more for crimes and murders than openly carried handguns each year in the US.

Yet, people don't seem to be at all concerned with concealed handguns...while even gun forum members imply (or state outright) that merely slinging up a rifle is probable cause of a crime.

I don't even know what to say to this.

The problem here is that some people think gun owners should keep a low profile, never cause a fuss, and hope that no one ever knows that they are gun owners.

Sorry! We don't keep our rights by keeping quiet and hoping no one notices us.

Some people think that what ever a cop wants must be okay. They don't care if their car is searched without probable cause, they don't care if they get stopped at random on the street and get frisked, they don't care if the cops order you out of your house at gun point and then search it without probable cause or search warrant, (don't believe it happened? Boston, during the lockdown after the Boston bomber shootout. Police ordered people out of their houses at gun point, and searched them) Greensburg, Kansas, after the tornado, people were illegally ordered from undamaged houses at gun point, police later searched and confiscated guns from those undamaged houses. And of course New Orleans after hurricane Katrina.

Many, many other incidents, all of which have been defended by unthinking supporters of Law Enforcement, on the grounds, "they are just looking out for the welfare of the community", or "it's no big deal, it is in the name of public safety".

All police States justify themselves in the name of "public safety".

Look, if they had just stopped and talked to these guys, identified them, then maybe kept an eye on them... no problem! That is what I would expect.

But handcuffing them in the back of a squad car for 45 minutes, while they tried to come up with some excuse to arrest them, and attempting to erase the video, is beyond what should be accepted in civil society. The police abused their authority, and violated their civil rights.

My Father was a truck driver, who often handled wide loads, and the Highway Patrol hated trailer house drivers at the time, and would always stop them, give them an extensive "safety check", and inevitably "find" something they could write a ticket for. I remember more than once, them going over the truck and trailer several times with multiple references to their book of regulations trying to find some fault, no matter how small to write a ticket. Somehow, they always did, even if it wouldn't hold up in any court, because they knew it would cost the truck driver more to fight it in court, than pay the fine.

Like I said earlier, not all cops are thugs, but many are!

Bubba613 said:

So you're really going to compare carrying holstered handguns to open carrying rifles? Really?
It is amazing the lengths to which people here dissemble on this. So carrying a rifle is like carrying a pistol. Carrying a rifle hoping to get noticed is like black people eating in a restaurant.
Hey, change the two white guys to two Muslims and see how it works out. Change it to two Hispanics and see how it works out. Perhaps an african muslim on the street with a knife is just like black people eating in a restaurant and we shouldn't disturb him or question him. Unless he happens to be this guy of course;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWebuK_n_8o
No reason to question or detain him prior to his beheading anyone. After all, carrying a knife is like carrying a set of keys, right?

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I take it then, that you don't think black people should eat at restaurants, Muslims have guns, or Hispanics.

Your example from Great Britain, is from a place where you aren't allowed any weapon, or even to defend yourself if attacked. They are even thinking of banning kitchen knives as I understand. No one has argued that the police couldn't question or identify these two individuals, only the manner in which they did so. It was excessive to say the least, and their attempt to delete the video an obvious violation of the first amendment.

I never said anything about what was and was not acceptable, simply that open carrying a long gun through town is dumb, attention seeking behavior that most folks who aren't gun nuts frown upon.

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I simply asked your opinion about what is the most acceptable measure to stand for 2A rights: you stated that your belief is the Appleton scenario herein actually hurts the pro 2A movement-don't back-pedal now...

I am NOT asking you to think anything about LEOs, per their opinions on open carry: You asked about my experience(s) carrying long guns. Your response, to my well-measured and factual response, leads me to believe your tactics are manipulation and distraction. No offense, I am not personally attacking you, just an observation on how you are avoiding the actual topic. (Read your own qualifying words and the uses of absolutes and extreme measures of "all" , "everybody", etc..

So, you have somewhat stated your opinion on these (2) guys: what do you believe is the furthest 2A activist activity, that can be taken w/o harming the movement to protect our 2A rights w/o being handcuffed, detained, questioned, etc.?

S&W620 said:

I never said anything about what was and was not acceptable, simply that open carrying a long gun through town is dumb, attention seeking behavior that most folks who aren't gun nuts frown upon.

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What about openly carried holstered handguns?

Will you give a stamp of acceptance on that?

WOW Six pages devoted to trolling, the only thing we are going to agree on here is to disagree.

S&W620 said:

I'm also willing to bet a paycheck that folks usually talk much more on the internet than they actually do in real life.

Allowing a cop to look in my trunk isn't giving up any right at all, it's simply allowing a cop to look in my trunk, don't confuse the two. Again, just because I can prohibit it doesn't mean I have to. Personally I'd rather save myself the 45 min these schmucks wasted and go on about my day than debate laws with cops.

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you seem like a guy that attacks people for exercising rights but then you meekly let a cop search your trunk. seems backwards to me. there are two types of people in this country now one that gets a govt check and one that does not and it is not hard to pick one or the other

Who do they think they are? I have nothing but respect for the job LE does, but when they clearly step over the line and begin harrassing, and violating law abiding citizens rights, they must be, and should be held accountable
I live in Arizona, and although I've had one or two uncomfortable situations involving LE and my firearms, I've never been treated like that. The worst situation was following a shooting that happened next door to me. LE went door to door asking questions and searching for the suspect. But when they came to my home, they climbed over my locked gate, knocked on my door and when I answered it I was wearing my sidearm. The officer reached around my partialially open screen door and grabbed my weapon and removed it from the holster, without any good cause what so ever. He then unloaded it and began inspecting it to see if it had been recently fired and then said I had just cleaned it, which was inaccurate. While all this was taking place, other officers were searching my property for a suspect. When they ask to search my home I flat out refused to allow them in my home. They handed my weapon back to me and left, and that was that.

GS

Just curious why you opened the screen door?

Ok, a simple thing that a couple of here seem to miss. When one talks about LEO infringing upon the rights of citizens, we are talking about a LEO "breaking the law". You do understand that right?

This idea of arrest and then hoping to pin "something" is illegal. You don't get to break the law as a LEO and still be the good guys. LEOs are supposed to enforce, not make up.

People on here who profess to be all about the Constitution and stuff and then argue that this behavior by LEOs is acceptable certainly make themselves look foolish.

Well, I really cannot argue with someone who cannot distinguish a handgun from a long gun.

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Oh good grief. That's just silly. You're not presenting arguments at this point, nor answering questions. I'm not sure what this assertion is even supposed to suggest.

Nor someone who cannot take responsibility for his actions.

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You've completely lost me here. What actions?

Good luck with it all.

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Uh, ok! You too, I guess.

I highly recommend that all you guys that know your rights and think this is a really cool thing to do, carry an AR everywhere you go. If its legal, do it. What could possibly go wrong? Or do you just like to give it lip service and you wouldn't really do it yourself?
Seriously, go for it and post your results. Of would you just rather watch other people do it?
You guys that had something smart to say about my post, I'll be waiting to read of your experience.