WW2 1/2 and 3/4 hip on you tube

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brownie0486 said:
Giving one or several examples of high level operators seems odd.
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Did you even look at the videos I linked to?

Those are normal everyday people taking his courses and putting them to use...specifically the first link. I only included Rudy's back story to demonstrate that he has a background in real life shootings to teach what he does.

Can I gather that you aren't familiar with Rudy...or his body of work?
 
Sooooo, your stated accuracy standard is 8"-10" COM......yet, inexplicably, you're unable to meet your own standard.....but want people to pay you money so you can teach them to do what you apparently cannot.

You've read enough about my abilities from students aar's, right here, I need not defend what others have reported seeing. That those runs didn't meet the general standard we strive to achieve with the exception of one 5 shot run, there is no pass or fail with a measuring tape or "zones" for points, if you prefer.

The 8-10" standard we try to maintain in some of the skills can't be maintained by the very nature of some skills. Two are like that from the hip, the zipper and the "bump" [ where one of the aar's mentioned they couldn't believe one could do head shots from the hip after giving a body shot from the hip ]. Zipper, stitching them up the middle as you move through from 1/2 to point shoulder ending with a head shot at point shoulder.

So the 8-10" standard is something to strive for, not a requirement to pass in certain skills, not in others. You didn't read any aar's that mentioned that either. Oh, I train 4 times a year around the US, no summer work in the heat. I'm retired, per se. I fill every class capped at 20, and the reviews all tell the same story.

I explained why I don't mind the hit dispersion as long as that first shot is deemed something that would disrupt enough to get more on them. Some do, some don't. I know, I pulled those two groin shots, my bad, but they were nearly touching and would have destroyed enough of him to create that .20 to second shot in his reaction alone. No good for points, but the probability that those two side by side shots put him out of the fight are rather significant in the real world. You discount the real world. Just as a for instance you may not know of--Shanghai, mid 30's once again. Keeping track of every shoot, one of the more interesting aspects of the data was that bg's that were gut shot tended to drop what they were holding a large percentage of time. But the good guys didn't get any points taken away from them when they shot lower, they got to live another day. :eek:
 
Remember, WWII was where guys like Jeff Cooper got their first tastes of combat and started thinking of how to test and refine practical shooting techniques.
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I'm not certain he saw a whole lot while guarding a ship.
 
It's one thing to accept lucky hits from a student. It's quite another to pay a guy who makes lucky/random hits show me how to make....lucky random hits.

You say you possess a high level of skill, yet the videos you post do not show that high level of skill. It seems to me that you'd want yo put forth the best representation of yourself on the world stage. Instead, you refer us to somebody who took your class in 2006 singing your praises. I have seen novice shooters be impressed by C or D class performance, so there's not enough to counter your bad draw coupled with bad hits to think you're really better than your posted videos show.

And I hate to keep pointing that out. I'm sure you're a great guy and I'm sure your class might even be fun to take. But I haven't heard you explain why your draw stroke is so flawed. Or is the draw stroke important to you?
 
9mmepiphany,

"You're not getting out of the way running at 12 or 6 O clock to the threat."

That is exactly what he is doing at 4:48 in this video

Interesting, he's so close to the threat he can smell him yet sticks his gun out for a gun grab. No one walks around with a sam brown type rig with speed loaders adorning his abdomen. Where retention would be needed on the street to prevent an attempted gun grab or struggle for the weapon due to the distance, he hands it to him.

No thanks, though I'm sure he's a talented guy and can impart skills to others.

Look, it's no more difficult than this. There are members here who felt there was value in the skills, made em faster on threat than they were before the training. This forum has seen the sighted vs unsighted debates here over the years many times.

I'll not keep defending that which has been argued and will continue to be argued, probably forever. It is what it is, people find value in the skills as noted here by members of this forum. People can watch the video's and decide for themselves.

You guys have at it all you like, but showing someone with a gun at serious retention distance nearly handing it to the perp doesn't impress me one bit tactically. At that distance it may not even be a gun solution to begin with. He never gets off line while drawing, he's become a potential bullet sponge. That was the point I was trying to make about 12 and 6 O clock. If you run straight away or toward the threat you have not gotten out of the line of fire. Those are my opinions, along with a lot of other people, all over the US. You and others are free to disagree, choose how you want to train and who you want to train with, of course.
 
It's one thing to accept lucky hits from a student. It's quite another to pay a guy who makes lucky/random hits show me how to make....lucky random hits.

You say you possess a high level of skill, yet the videos you post do not show that high level of skill. It seems to me that you'd want yo put forth the best representation of yourself on the world stage. Instead, you refer us to somebody who took your class in 2006 singing your praises. I have seen novice shooters be impressed by C or D class performance, so there's not enough to counter your bad draw coupled with bad hits to think you're really better than your posted videos show.

And I hate to keep pointing that out. I'm sure you're a great guy and I'm sure your class might even be fun to take. But I haven't heard you explain why your draw stroke is so flawed. Or is the draw stroke important to you?

You saw a fumble or two out of many draw strokes from concealed. The draw stroke isn't flawed, that's just YOUR opinion. So, read post 32, train the way you want to train and pick who you want to train with accordingly. Others are free to do the same thing.

See post 32. I have NO inclination to argue with you or anyone with a gamer mentality. I've seen that circus before and it goes nowhere, including right here on this forum a decade ago.
 
So if people take you to task on aspects shown in your videos, you dismiss them because they have a "gamer" mentality. Convenient.

You fumbled a draw in the first video pretty badly. If you want to present yourself in the best possible light, you'd have redone that short video.

The egregious draw stroke shown in the 7 yd video (with the lucky hits) is consistent....but it's consistently bad, doing the "bowling" excessive/needless movement that beginners do. A puzzle, to say the least.

Apparently the case is....you find nothing wrong with your draw stroke or poor hits. This is why you defend them so vigorously.
 
So if people take you to task on aspects shown in your videos, you dismiss them because they have a "gamer" mentality. Convenient.

You took me to task? Interesting, I thought you were merely making observations.

You fumbled a draw in the first video pretty badly. If you want to present yourself in the best possible light, you'd have redone that short video.

Yup,

The egregious draw stroke shown in the 7 yd video (with the lucky hits) is consistent....but it's consistently bad, doing the "bowling" excessive/needless movement that beginners do. A puzzle, to say the least.

In your opinion, yup. It's not a puzzle, you come from the gamer/front sight press charging the threat mentality where you have to make A hits to win and take issue with anything that's within that realm while I'll accept hits that will affect similar outcomes [ the bg ceases their aggression ] and am not stuck on "points" system.

Apparently the case is....you find nothing wrong with your draw stroke or poor hits. This is why you defend them so vigorously.

Poor hits compared to what, A hits and down 0's for score in a game? Two to the groin or neck will do just fine in the real world of no A's and down 0's, just shots that are going to be quite effective at solving the problem of stopping aggression.

The end of the vids states if you're interested in threat focused training, contact me with contact information. I've had enough interest across the US to have been putting on courses a few times a year for the last 9 years. If one is not interested, I don't expect an email, if one is, I'll likely hear form them. Past students include several LE orgs, USAF/PJ's, line officers and ordinary citizens from all walks of life.

It's not something for you, but then it's not something I expect everyone to like or agree with. It is what it is, but in having these discussions, one thing is quite clear. The sighted vs unsighted bs will continue, and I've allowed myself to get sucked into once more. Did that years ago, don't care to continue in that vane, it gets nowhere. I'll take the students that see value in obtaining the skills.

I see no value and a serious detriment to staying alive at the link and 4:48 mark where shooting from retention would be wise and he sticks the gun out for a grab. He makes no attempt to move off the line of fire while drawing. Apparently others think what he's doing there is tactically sound defensively. In other venues where movement is considered paramount while drawing, that guy would be taking heat for not moving and thus becoming a bullet sponge while handing the perp his firearm. Again, simply a matter of opinion.

Enjoy yours as much as I enjoy mine.
 
I would assume he's just showing a few of the old techniques that were stepping stones along the way to the refined skills we teach and use today.
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Yeah, I kind of figured that out. I was just wondering why one would employ that technique in the instance shown in the video. To be honest, I made the first post in the thread just to get things started off. I kind of wanted to see where this thread would go, as if I didn't already know. ;)

As some of you know, I was at one time a USPSA Grandmaster. I have been moved down in class at my request due to some health issues, but I occasionally stand and deliver GM scores on classifiers. I know what it takes to perform at the GM level. I don't think David E is trying to berate Brownie, but David is correct that the skill sets we see in Brownie's videos don't portray the skill sets (speed and accuracy) of a M or GM shooter that we are accustomed to seeing. To beat a GM in a USPSA match consisting of the recommended balance of stage construction would take one hell of a performance. On the flip side, I have indeed seen GM shooters taken entirely out of their element and not do so well. For instance, take a GM Open shooter and hand him a Glock then send him off to a GSSF match and I wouldn't expect him to win. :D

brownie: Did you watch the entire video of Rudy Waldinger? Rudy is the real deal, a top flight warrior in every sense of the word. In addition to teaching folks how to fight with a gun, he is a member of ICORE (International Confederation of Revolver Enthusiasts) and he is a USPSA/IPSC shooter. The video of him shooting in a match with a wheel gun is just the tip of the ice burg as far as his skill sets. I wouldn't use how he applies his "gamer" skills as a foundation to critique his "fighting" skills. The same is true of any gamer. Inspite of the trite and worn out "IPSC will get you killed" mantra, I think we all know it is possible to develop square range skills right along side gun fighting skills.

As far as firearms training goes, there are several notable gamers that make a pretty good living training elite military and police. Some of those trainers teach combatives, strategy, and tactics as well as how to run the gun. Others teach how to run the gun and then leave it up to the warriors to teach their folks how to fight with a gun. I generally don't like to drop names, but I'll mentioned Ron Avery because of a conversation I once had with him. Ron told me something to the effect that an accomplished B class shooter (USPSA) has far more gun handling skills than the majority of folks that carry a gun. In fact, if I remember right, he told me B class skills are good enough (in general), from there it is how he applies and modifies those skills in a changing and dynamic environment that will determine the outcome of an armed encounter.

Edited to add: Look at Rudy's video at 3:36 and tell me if Rudy looks like a gamer?
 
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And your conclusions about hip shooting while running sideways?

(C'mon admit it, you do want to see the video of this!)
 
And your conclusions about hip shooting while running sideways?
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Do you mean my conclusions? Shooting at targets beyond "contact" distance while moving along the 180, use two hands. Shooting while running uprange (away from threat), use one hand at full extension. Shooting while getting off the X, from retention if a gun grab is in the cards.

Edited to add: As for force on force with airsoft, that is something everyone should try. In my experience, if you start at bad breath distance, both folks usually end up getting hit.
 
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My critique of brownies draw stroke isn't mere opinion, it's an educated, objective analysis.

When I see the basic flaws of a beginner, I point them out, demo the proper draw stroke and work with them until they get it right. Before long, their draw stroke and, therefore, the time to first shot on target are improved tremendously.

Since brownie says he's all about speed, then a perfected draw stroke is part of what delivers that speed. Having rudimentary flaws in the draw stroke will NOT result in the fastest shot on target, regardless of whether the shot is fired from the hip of not.
 
I don't think David E is trying to berate Brownie, but David is correct that the skill sets we see in Brownie's videos don't portray the skill sets (speed and accuracy) of a M or GM shooter that we are accustomed to seeing

David incorrectly assumed those skills were being used, that's been addressed.

As I mentioned, he appears to be quite talented, yet using that video to demonstrate shooting to your six is flawed tactically for the reasons I stated.

Ron told me something to the effect that an accomplished B class shooter (USPSA) has far more gun handling skills than the majority of folks that carry a gun. In fact, if I remember right, he told me B class skills are good enough (in general), from there it is how he applies and modifies those skills in a changing and dynamic environment that will determine the outcome of an armed encounter.

I agree with that as well.

As far as firearms training goes, there are several notable gamers that make a pretty good living training elite military and police.

Yes sir, by reputation in the gaming community. Feds made the same mistake when they adopted Weavers stance and front sight press years ago as well. Hasn't worked out that well for them, dash cam vids of their being shot at doesn't see them shooting two handed or charging the threat but in few cases. People might want to consider how people respond who've been trained otherwise.

Dave was apparently getting all butt hurt over my stating cops are inadequately trained. Their dismal 19-23% hit rates on the streets suggests there's a disconnect in their training. Sorry to have to repeat it, but the majority of line officers don't have the skills necessary to stay alive very well while under incoming.

In my experience, if you start at bad breath distance, both folks usually end up getting hit.

Tactics diminish that risk. At bad breath, it may not even be a gun solution initially. If one sees it as a gun solution all the time, they are "tactically challenged".

The response to the vids from the gamers hasn't been totally unexpected Ankeny. Same old saw, and to quite honest, I don't think it will likely ever end.
 
Dave, you see flaws in the draw stroke based on YOUR experience, your ideas of "proper" draw stroke and training. Bryce, Jordan, Askins didn't use a 4 or 5 count draw stroke and punch the gun out in front of them at eye level, they used something different. You look through colored glasses of a gamer with a closed mind about threat focused skills due to your related experience where some asshat leo who made you do something without any proper instruction.

And with that, continue to post all your thoughts on the vids, you are entitled to your opinion, though it's not shared by the students who attend. I'll take those interested in learning these skills and continue to see the students improve their time to shots on threat and how to use them dynamically on the streets during fof.
 
Bryce, Jordan, Askins didn't use a 4 or 5 count draw stroke and punch the gun out in front of them at eye level, they used something different.
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Ok, sure, as pointed out before. But they were guys experimenting with a new science of gunfighting. Like Darwin on the Beagle, just getting the first hints of what would someday be a developed and highly refined thing.

They were starting on the journey, not arriving at the destination. And folks have been walking the path and surpassing what they discovered for half a century at this point. Why would your teaching be hung on what they did back then? It worked, yeah, but so did carburetors and hand-crank telephones. Learning didn't stop, so teaching shouldn't be frozen at the pre-dawn of the "Modern Technique" either.

I understand that students in a class may be impressed and have good things to say. But that's hardly an objective critique.
 
Interesting. Why debate when you can obfuscate?

I can point out your draw stroke flaws so even you can see them. No "opinion" required.

You talk a great game, what with your deflections and distractions. It's been amusing to watch.

For the record, your videos do not show "skills," as you claim. They only show techniques being executed poorly.
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For the record, your videos do not show "skills," as you claim. They only show techniques being executed poorly.

That's all they were meant to demonstrate, as I've explained to you several times now. As for poor execution, simply an opinion, no more or less.

I understand that students in a class may be impressed and have good things to say. But that's hardly an objective critique.

They express their observations on where they've been taken in skills for them. As they experience and relate their opinions on their performance increases, it's their critique of the what benefit they received in the training. No more or less.
 
brownie0486 said:
Interesting, he's so close to the threat he can smell him yet sticks his gun out for a gun grab. No one walks around with a sam brown type rig with speed loaders adorning his abdomen. Where retention would be needed on the street to prevent an attempted gun grab or struggle for the weapon due to the distance, he hands it to him.

No thanks, though I'm sure he's a talented guy and can impart skills to others.
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I find it interesting that you point out figures from the past who have used dated techniques effectively, yet you don't extend the same courtesy to someone who has used a technique at odds with your beliefs.

Believe me, Rudy has many choices in his toolbox from which to choose. Many of which have been used to save his life when confronted with those intent to kill him and his protectee. When given a choice, wouldn't it seem more reasonable to learn from someone who has used the skill in real life encounters...if they also have the ability to teach.

I don't know enough about your background and experience to make a statement about how you might have personally tested your techniques against armed adversaries . Perhaps you can enlighten us?

BTW: I'd also like to see a video of hip shooting while running sideways at full speed
 
I find it interesting that you point out figures from the past who have used dated techniques effectively, yet you don't extend the same courtesy to someone who has used a technique at odds with your beliefs.

I've remarked twice now that he appears to have talent, but handing your gun to someone from behind and not moving off line was tactically unsound. I haven't addressed anything else about his abilities or else wise.

I don't know enough about your background and experience to make a statement about how you might have personally tested your techniques against armed adversaries . Perhaps you can enlighten us?

28 years on the streets, UC against OC for the AG's office for 5 years of that, 9 as a uniformed officer and plenty of EP work, mostly in the US but some OCONUS as well. Been shot, been stabbed, still here. BTDT as well, and enough of my background is here on this forum from years past if someone decided to research this forum. I'm not an fng, here or on the streets.
 
brownie0486 said:
but handing your gun to someone from behind and not moving off line was tactically unsound.
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They used to say that about shooting two-handed (too slow) and the Isosceles (too off-balance) too. ;)

All the really good instructors I've known have always been eternal students and looking to improve on older techniques, looking for things that challenged their techniques. I find it disquieting that you seem reluctant to even consider that Rudy's technique is viable.

How do you feel about his Tomahawk techniques?
 
They used to say that about shooting two-handed (too slow) and the Isosceles (too off-balance) too.

All the really good instructors I've known have always been eternal students and looking to improve on older techniques, looking for things that challenged their techniques. I find it disquieting that you seem reluctant to even consider that Rudy's technique is viable.

How do you feel about his Tomahawk techniques?

I think it's quite viable, he proved it in the video. Unfortunately, it's a retention distance he's using if he's going to go to guns that close, and he's sticking the gun out and handing it to the perp, in a very awkward position, off balance to boot, doesn't move off line, and this skill you thought enough about to point it out at what minute mark is just not tactically sound. Viable? We can only guess, he makes it appear so, yet there's far more instructors that would poo poo that skill than would for the reasons I stated, especially if they've ever worked with fof.

I didn't watch the vid, I went to the minute mark you posted, looked at it and said, that's enough. I've also stated he's apparently got talent, and from what I've read here a background in staying above ground. Excellent.

They used to say that about shooting two-handed (too slow) and the Isosceles (too off-balance) too.

Try that in the real world against someone who's got skills, you'll be mauled and may lose your gun. Go try it with a buddy and a training gun and let us know how it worked out. I'm not picking apart his skills demo, just making observations based on experience and fof role playing up close and personal.

Here's a picture of my knocking an airsoft out of the students hand as he was bringing the gun up on me while facing me from one of the Tenn courses some years ago. Guns on the ground, he was handing it to me on his draw from retention position. He's thrown his hands up with a *** comment, thought he had me.

In the other one, he's drawn first. I've trapped the gun hand/gun going inside to keep him from shooting me as I'm shooting him, both from bad breath distance. It's why retention skills have been developed. If you think his skill will fare better with his back to me, you are entitled to your opinion.
 

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Let's see, let me get this straight...

You're posting a series of videos that show antiquated, 70 yr old techniques being poorly demonstrated by a guy that can't even come close to meeting his own accuracy standard.... :rolleyes:

I can't wait for the next video...
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Years ago I ran across a manual (army I think) for the 1911 pistol. maybe 1930s era. it showed a sketch of someone on one knee with the gun extended out in one hand. This was the "official" way you were supposed to use it apparently.
 
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