Members Alliance Credit Union in my local Walmart at 3902 W Riverside Blvd Rockford, IL is posted with a no guns sign. I am afraid that some CCW licensees may be forced to un-holster their handgun and un-load and enclose in a case to be protected from prosecution by using the transportation exemption of the UUW and the risk of scaring customers and credit union staff and the additional risk of an ND and/or being shot while trying to comply with the law is reason enough for Walmart to pressure the credit union to remove the signage especially since their insurance rates could skyrocket.
Members Alliance Credit Union in my local Walmart is posted no guns
- Thread starter borgranta
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Are you actually suggesting someone carry a cased gun into a bank?
The much simpler solution is don't go inside that credit union while carrying, dont know about you but I don't tend to go inside banks on a whim. Its usually for a specific purpose. If that's your bank leave the gun at home or in the car, don't do something stupid like unholster in public. Also I'm not sure your going to be protected if you carry a cased gun into a bank, those type of laws are usually written to protect us from prosecution when we travel directly from point A to point B (assuming you're legally allowed to have a gun at both points).
And now the disclaimer; I don't agree with the sign I hate the politcal statement that it makes, and I don't see how a concealed weapon is a danger to anyone there.
The transportation exemption in ILLINOIS was crafted in such a way that it does not mention a specific destination it just simply required that the firearm be
unloaded and enclosed in a case shipping box or other container or not immediately accessible or broken down in a non-functional state. Their is case law that states that a destination is not implied so keeping an unloaded and encased firearm in your trunk to go target shooting or hunting after work would be legal in ILLINOIS.
unloaded and enclosed in a case shipping box or other container or not immediately accessible or broken down in a non-functional state. Their is case law that states that a destination is not implied so keeping an unloaded and encased firearm in your trunk to go target shooting or hunting after work would be legal in ILLINOIS.
mbogo
Member
Unless that sign has force of law in IL, ignore it and transact your business.
If it does have force of law, talk to the manager and ask him to remove it.
mbogo
If it does have force of law, talk to the manager and ask him to remove it.
mbogo
NavyLCDR
member
And to think that all these years if I had to do business somewhere the gun was prohibited that I just stuck it in the glove box, locked it, locked the car which turns on the alarm, and then went inside the building.....
Red Wind
Member
Only Montana and Nebraska totally disallow bank carry. States where appropriate signs have the force of law are another matter.
My understanding is Illinois no guns signs do have the force of law, remember they were dragged into issuing carry permits kicking and screaming.
So where do you plan on unholstering and casing your gun? Right outside the door? You're no longer concealed at that point. Not to mention the attention you'll attract by carrying a cased gun with you plain sight. Sorry but this is just a leave the gun in the car situation.
So where do you plan on unholstering and casing your gun? Right outside the door? You're no longer concealed at that point. Not to mention the attention you'll attract by carrying a cased gun with you plain sight. Sorry but this is just a leave the gun in the car situation.
I personally disagree.
How many credit unions or banks are there in your area? I would let my feelings be known to credit union management and let them know why they are losing my business.
Life's too short -- move on to a bank that is in line with your views pertaining to 2nd Amendment.
BullfrogKen
Moderator Emeritus
Trying to follow this here.
Tell me if I read you right -
A credit union inside the Walmart is posted no guns
The Walmart itself is not posted
You don't bank at the credit union, you just use the Walmart
You want to pressure Walmart to do something, not the credit union
Your concern is someone will have an ND unloading the gun in the store so they can enter the credit union
Someone knowledgeable in IL will have to answer these questions -
I know the new IL permit is heavily restricted. Are banks already off limits by the statute in IL?
Do the signs carry the weight of law?
Would that sign only apply to the credit union, or the whole store, Walmart?
Does a no gun sign apply just to loaded guns, or any gun whether it is loaded or not?
Tell me if I read you right -
A credit union inside the Walmart is posted no guns
The Walmart itself is not posted
You don't bank at the credit union, you just use the Walmart
You want to pressure Walmart to do something, not the credit union
Your concern is someone will have an ND unloading the gun in the store so they can enter the credit union
Someone knowledgeable in IL will have to answer these questions -
I know the new IL permit is heavily restricted. Are banks already off limits by the statute in IL?
Do the signs carry the weight of law?
Would that sign only apply to the credit union, or the whole store, Walmart?
Does a no gun sign apply just to loaded guns, or any gun whether it is loaded or not?
DT Guy
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Someone knowledgeable in IL will have to answer these questions -
I know the new IL permit is heavily restricted. Are banks already off limits by the statute in IL?
No
Do the signs carry the weight of law?If it's the state approved sign, yes
Would that sign only apply to the credit union, or the whole store, Walmart? Considering it is only posted 'conspicuously' and near the entrance to the credit union, I would believe (IANAL) it would only apply to the bank, or the area 'beyond' the sign
Does a no gun sign apply just to loaded guns, or any gun whether it is loaded or not? Grey area, IMHO. You could potentially carry a cased gun in, but I think you'd end up dealing with a state's attorney if you got the 'wrong' cop in the 'wrong' town
There really is no "transportation" exemption for IL licensees. I wrote a longish post about why I think this is so.
http://fccaillinois.blogspot.com/2014/04/transport-versus-carry.html
What the concealed carry licensing law actually says is this:
So if it is one of the 23 prohibited areas under section 65 (a), and you are a licensee, you just cannot carry (or transport) a firearm there. Note that there are some minor exemptions to the complete ban in these 23 areas that are found in sections 65 (b) and (c) and sections 65 (a)(3) and (a)(13).
Credit unions are not one of the 23 banned areas under section 65(a).
Section 65 (a-10) allows a private property owner to ban the carry of concealed firearms on his property by posting the prescribed sign. Note that this is not part of section 65 (a) so the direct prohibition found there would not appear to apply.
I don't see how an unloaded gun in a paper bag is not a concealed firearm or that it is not being carried.
However, it is unclear to me just what law might be broken. The FCCA does not itself explicitly prohibit the carrying of a concealed firearm (which the law defines as a concealed handgun) onto private property that is posted but not banned under section 65 (a).
It does allow the owner of the property to do so though by posting the sign. However, the owner always had that power under the criminal trespass statute, just in a more watered down way.
It is unlikely that WalMart posted the sign. It is not even clear that WalMart owns the building. Only the building owner can prohibit carry by having the sign posted.
My guess is that there is no criminal violation involved in violating the sign if the CU posted the sign on their own since it is unlikely they own the building. But, that is just a guess and my opinion on it won't stop someone from being taken downtown and booked for some kind of violation.
http://fccaillinois.blogspot.com/2014/04/transport-versus-carry.html
What the concealed carry licensing law actually says is this:
So if it is one of the 23 prohibited areas under section 65 (a), and you are a licensee, you just cannot carry (or transport) a firearm there. Note that there are some minor exemptions to the complete ban in these 23 areas that are found in sections 65 (b) and (c) and sections 65 (a)(3) and (a)(13).
Credit unions are not one of the 23 banned areas under section 65(a).
Section 65 (a-10) allows a private property owner to ban the carry of concealed firearms on his property by posting the prescribed sign. Note that this is not part of section 65 (a) so the direct prohibition found there would not appear to apply.
I don't see how an unloaded gun in a paper bag is not a concealed firearm or that it is not being carried.
However, it is unclear to me just what law might be broken. The FCCA does not itself explicitly prohibit the carrying of a concealed firearm (which the law defines as a concealed handgun) onto private property that is posted but not banned under section 65 (a).
It does allow the owner of the property to do so though by posting the sign. However, the owner always had that power under the criminal trespass statute, just in a more watered down way.
It is unlikely that WalMart posted the sign. It is not even clear that WalMart owns the building. Only the building owner can prohibit carry by having the sign posted.
My guess is that there is no criminal violation involved in violating the sign if the CU posted the sign on their own since it is unlikely they own the building. But, that is just a guess and my opinion on it won't stop someone from being taken downtown and booked for some kind of violation.
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DT Guy
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The company I work for had their attorneys consider this, and their opinion was that a leaseholder would have the authority under this law to post the property they hold the lease on, based on caselaw defining the 'owner' of a property.
Just an FYI-
Larry
patmccoy
Member
Red wind:
Montana allows open carry in banks, just not concealed carry.
Montana allows open carry in banks, just not concealed carry.
Red Wind
Member
^Thank you for the correction.patmccoy. I had thought it also included open carry in that law. I see from http://www.opencarry.org/?page_id=267 that you are correct.
I think it is a good bet that a posted sign will carry with it the presumption it was posted by someone with the authority to do so.
proving in court that it was not "legally" posted may not be all that easy.
how this situation would shake out in court is unclear, but your lawyers may well be right.
OTOH, this is not a situation where the lease contract covers all the parties involved. The licensee is in effect a 3rd party and the courts may see it that way.
jerkface11
Member
Call walmart and find out if the sign violates the banks lease.
kitsapshooter
Member
Thanks for a thought provoking and informative thread.
Ironically the FCCA does not regulate long guns and therefore the sign can not have the force of law for someone transporting a purchased rifle. Another fact is that the FCCA specifically requires the owner of the property to post if the property is under the owner's control and since Members Alliance is not under Walmart's control Walmart would not legally be able to post the sign at the bank. Members Alliance can not post legally either since they do not own the property they merely rent it.
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