Army / Rifle Cleaning

Funny this should be posted. Just a few days ago a brother sent an email to the rest of us siblings about cleaning rifles in the Marines (he was in the Marines). Here's what he said:


I don’t know if you’ve seen a grunt unit go through re-fit at a Force Service Support Group (armory) or not, but here’s a short description of it.

1. The company commander orders that they clean their weapons to inspection standard before the unit goes into line at the armory refit station.

a. Company commanders have a single armorer embedded with them (usually a guy being preened for gunnery seargeant…duh), who holds the standard and sends guys back (the unit commander’s authority) to continue cleaning until the weapon is “perfect.”

b. Zero dirt and oil on the weapon.
i. If the unit-level armorer passes a single weapon that holds up the FSSG armory’s inspection process, it WILL reflect in his fitness report/SRB…mandatory entry.

2. The unit gets in line at the armory refit station…and walks through single-file at a standard, quick-step….

3. Each marine’s weapon gets a functional check with various jigs and fixtures designed to detect out-of-tolerance wear conditions (the inspectors are working at the speed of blur).

a. The jig/fixture test is done in the flash of a split-second, and the result determines what direction the weapon will go in the inspection/refit process line.

i. Down the line for the next inspection/test, or

ii. Over to the parallel station within arm’s reach to have the out of tolerance part removed and replaced with an in-tolerance replacement:

1. ANY part of the weapon…period. Barrel, bayonette lug, butt, fore-piece, upper receiver, lower receiver, doesn’t matter.

b. The weapon is re-inserted into the inspection line at the inspection station that rejected it, and it is re-tested before it passes on to the next sub-station test point.

4. The marine walks through the whole line-station setup at quick-time (120 steps per minute) and receives his ‘like-new’ weapon back at the end of the station.


This takes no longer than the time required for a platoon to march through the armory station in single-file at quick-step. If you see our man in the Steyr factory video doing the inspection of the barrel (about 1min+50sec into the vid) and dropping the metrological “rod” device down through the barrel bore, that’s exactly the same way a marine’s rifle barrel is inspected for straightness and inside barrel wear/distortion…and the weapon must be absolutely clean or they won’t even do this test. This is the answer to the private’s question, “Why do we have to get our weapons perfectly clean when we come out of the field?” GD&T at every test, that’s why…just like at the factory.


I thought this was pretty enlightening.

DJnRF said:

With a storage situation you have always a variation of the
temperature and humidity. Condensation of moisture will happen.
With oil coating the moisture will lie on the metal of the firearm,
and beneath the oil. That moisture cannot dry, and will cause
rust. Moisture that is not under oil will evaporate so that a light
cleaning and oiling before shooting will clear up any traces of
rust residue.

Click to expand...

Except that the moisture is condensing from the air...not from the metal of the firearm. Coat it in oil and the moisture will not get through the oil to the metall, as oil is hydrophobic. That is why old rain coats were made of waxy or oily fabric, because the oil turned the water away. That is why there are oils specifically made for long term storage...or grease like Cosmoline.

It's the oxygen that makes the metal rust though. Oil also serves as an oxygen barrier.

moxie said:

BullfrogKen,

With the exception of the junior vs. senior thing, you've restated nearly exactly what I said.

Regarding the junior vs. senior, have to differ. I've not seen too many senior NCOs or officers standing white glove inspection in or out of garrison. Never happened to me in 23 years. MOS/AFSC matters too. Many troops in support specialties don't stand those kinds of inspections in garrison. Vehicle mechanics, supply guys, intel weenies, personnel pukes and my ammo troops are usually way too busy for that kind of thing.

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Pretty much, except when I said it I didn't phrase it in terms of a duty mostly of unskilled junior troops or those without "real jobs."


I'm not sure where you cut your ranks off in your mind as to junior vs senior.

In my Marine units if you had a rifle assigned to you in the armory, it was subject to inspection. And that pretty much included every enlisted rank up to the Platoon Sergeant (in our case an E-7, because in the Corps the heavy machinegun platoon rates an E-7 in that billet rather than the standard E-6 in all the other line units). And that was because they didn't get rifles assigned; they had pistols.

So I wouldn't consider an E-5 in the Corps to be a junior rank. And just because we didn't stand out there in routine inspections among the PFCs and Lance Corporals, be assured that during an IG the NCO's rifles were inspected alongside everyone else's.

As were our rooms. When I became an NCO our room was inspected just like the PFCs and LCpls were. Major difference is the PFCs and LCpl didn't witness it, and if we failed they didn't know of the disciplinary actions that would result.

Again it's all the same sort of garrison duty crackdown that happens to keep order, and in some cases I think it's nothing more than a silly exercise to remind the younger ranks who is in charge, and by just how much.


BTW - when Marines go off to a formal school, like Senior NCO school, they most certainly do get subjected to that same white glove inspection treatment the junior enlisted ranks experience.

Again, garrison games. But I think we've beaten this horse to death.

Fun thread. Hey, now I know you're a Marine everything falls into place. (I'll be at the club if you need me!)

HOOfan_1 said:

Except that the moisture is condensing from the air...not from the metal of the firearm. Coat it in oil and the moisture will not get through the oil to the metall, as oil is hydrophobic. That is why old rain coats were made of waxy or oily fabric, because the oil turned the water away. That is why there are oils specifically made for long term storage...or grease like Cosmoline.

It's the oxygen that makes the metal rust though. Oil also serves as an oxygen barrier.

Click to expand...

Moisture does come from the surrounding air, however, the condensed
moisture will attach itself to everything. Those drops of condensed
moisture contain the oxygen. When water comes into contact with oil it will automatically find the way through the oil and to the underlying surface. In the case of a bucket that has oil, this would be at the bottom of the bucket.
In this case, it will be to the metal of the firearm.

When you are talking about a heavy grease, or more specifically,
cosmoline, you are referring to a likeness of wrapping the metal
in a watertight, humidity controlled container. In that case, alone,
you are sealing the weapon in a way to keep water out. Military
weapons that may be boxed, stored for long periods of time before
they are issued are packed in cosmoline, and wrapped in an oil
paper. When they are being shipped to a unit supply they are
usually cleaned some, or the oil paper removed at the least.

The bluing used on a weapon is actually a controlled rust. This
is why it can help to prevent rust. Parkerizing of military weapons
is a totally different process, but also will tend to prevent rust.
As long as these two coatings are good, and intact, they will serve
to prevent the rust.

The occasional wiping of a stored, dry weapon will keep the surface
rust from drawing more moisture that will start its way into the metal
surface. If done properly the occasional wiping will remove the powder
rust to keep the metal clean.

DJnRF said:

Moisture does come from the surrounding air, however, the condensed
moisture will attach itself to everything. When water comes into contact
with oil it will automatically find the way through the oil and to the
underlying surface..

Click to expand...

Oil is hydrophobic. The water should bead up on the surface of the oil..not travel through the oil.

CLP Collector is not a wax or a grease, it is an oil. It is specifically designed to be used on metal for long term storage.

I can honestly say I have never heard anyone suggest that you should remove all oil from a gun before storing it.

The usual advice is to wipe them down with something designed specifically to prevent rust. CLP Collector, Eezox, RIG. Then you should store them in a humidity controlled environment.

Can you link me to any further reading material on this subject?

I always thought that water went under oil due to gravity pulling heavier water under oil. I'm not sure how that works on an object like an oiled firearm. Perhaps in the direction of gravity only, if the gun were left stationary.

One thing I noticed on a neglected machine I was working on yesterday is the plain steel bolt heads on it were only rusted on the top side. These bolts were installed installed horizontally like wheel lug nuts would be. The under side of the exposed bolt heads had zero rust and had the original low grade bluing on them.

This machine is less than 10 miles from a bay so humidity is ever present, yet it is indoors in a mostly air conditioned environment.

They wanted them CLEAN when I was in the Army. No oil, no carbon residue. No dust or dirt anywhere on the weapon being inspected. This was prior to weapons turn in at the end of training. Weapons would periodically be pulled out of the armory just to be re-cleaned and inspected.... this was like a religion . I personally inspected weapons and trained troops in their cleaning and maintenance. If you cared for and maintained your weapon, it would repay you when you needed it most. When weapons were actually being utilized, and in constant use in the field, diligent maintenance and inspection were required.

---

Alrighty, let's talk about oiling metals for preservation/rust prevention.

Oil is hydrophobic. This means it does not like water. Mix oil and water together, no matter how well, and eventually they'll separate, with water on the bottom because it's denser. Pour water on oil and it will sink through the oil to the bottom of the container. Mist water on top of the oil, however, and you'll see the tiny droplets of water bead up and float due to the surface tension of the oil being too strong to allow the tiny weight of the water dropplets to break through and sink.

So, then, why use oil as a preservative/rust preventer? The answer is because the oil will adhere to the metal, and quite well, too. Pour water on something that's been oiled and the water will bead up on the oiled surface (because oil is hydrophobic) and not penetrate through the thin layer next to the base metal underneath because that thin layer (which may only be molecules thick) has adhered to the metal.

Spread some oil on a flat surface and pour some water on top of that. You'll see an oily sheen as some of the molecules of oil float to the top. But the water won't (immediately) penetrate through the molecules-thick layer adhered to the flat surface because the attraction of the oil to the surface is stronger than the forces being felt due to the differences in density between the oil and the water.


OK, THAT SAID:

Oil is, indeed hydrophobic and less dense than water and adheres quite well to metals. However, if you maintain water in contact with the oiled material (this includes a humid environment, not just actual liquid water), eventually SOME of the water molecules will diffuse through the oil molecules, possibly due to osmotic pressure.

How much, and how quickly, water may diffuse is a factor of several variables such as the type of oil being used, temperatures involved, how well a particular piece of metal was oiled, humidity levels, time, contaminates, gravity, and so forth. How that water may affect corrosion of the metal also depends on whether or not the oil being used has any corrosion inhibitors in it.

And let's not forget another long term issue...namely that oil, like water and all other liquids, DOES evaporate over time, with the most volatile components of the oil in question evaporating the quickest. This changes the characteristics of the layer of oil on the metals, and thus the amount of protection (and lubrication) it provides.


BOTTOM LINE:

Oiling a gun does not impart a perfect, eternal protection against corrosion. It is simply one aspect in the proper short and long term care and protection of your firearm. Arguably the most important, but it alone won't cut it. Other aspects, such as cleaning, storage, proper handling, routine inspections, and nominal upkeep in between times.

I was a Company Gunny in the Corps. And yes, I was hated during Weapon Inspections.

HOOfan_1 said:

Can you link me to any further reading material on this subject?

Click to expand...

Sorry it took me time to get back on this. Too many calls the
past couple of days.

At the moment I am unable to find you more info on this as
all of my materials are in storage. I am not sure, but the
info might have been in a Lexicon that George wrote when
he worked for Shooting Times. Other than that, you can go
through all of our books to find it. You would find them of
interest as all are on firearms. Just look for Maj. George Nonte
in a library.

A good, quick explanation of what happens was posted here
by RetiredUSNChief. You mention having firearms stored in
a humidity controlled condition. However, it would really need
to be a De-humidified cabinet. I don't know about you, but I,
and most people, do not have such cabinets for storing firearms.
Not even huge bags of desiccate would help much as they soon
collect all the moisture they can hold, and are no longer any
good for that.

I had acquired a 'like new' Enfield Mk 1, .303. I have had it
stored now for about 30 years. I tend to forget, and not take
it out to check, and clean more than maybe once, or twice each
year. It is kept dry. It still looks as it did when I got it, and
has never gathered any rust.

I had also acquired a Mossberg Mod. U.S. 44 target rifle. The
person also kept it dry ... on the outside. He had always swabbed
the bore with heavy oil. He would get it out once each year, wipe
it down, and re-swab the bore with oil. The rifle looks great, except
for the bore. The bore is all pitted now. It has Olympic sights on
it, but so much now for the accuracy with the bore in that condition.

Dave.
Former associate of Maj. Geo. C. Nonte, U.S.A. Ord, retired
(G. C. Nonte & Associates, a firm that tested and evaluated
firearms, then wrote on them. We had also published many
books on firearms. [I still have the unfinished manuscript we
were working on when George died. Had thought about
finishing it, but instead went into writing on, lecturing on,
and teaching survival for the average person up until my
retirement. I still shoot, and now and then give a lecture
to groups. I also still practice survival techniques to remain
as able as possible ..... just in case. Currently, I am living
at a campground so as to work on some additional survival
food and cooking ideas. {mosquitoes are terrible) I will be
here until October when I attain my 75th b'day.])

Weapons in the military are often stored bone dry after cleaning. This is has been a constant with every unit I have served with. Even so rust is not that big an issue on military weapons for a couple of reasons. 1) military weapons have a different rust coating than their civilian counterparts. Counterpoint is stringent cleaning can rub that off. So 2) military arms rooms are kept very dry. It is not uncommon to have at least two or three 40QT dehumidifiers running in an arms room. My current unit armorer keeps the relative humidity around 40%

herrwalther said:

Weapons in the military are often stored bone dry after cleaning. This is has been a constant with every unit I have served with. Even so rust is not that big an issue on military weapons for a couple of reasons. 1) military weapons have a different rust coating than their civilian counterparts. Counterpoint is stringent cleaning can rub that off. So 2) military arms rooms are kept very dry. It is not uncommon to have at least two or three 40QT dehumidifiers running in an arms room. My current unit armorer keeps the relative humidity around 40%

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I work with archival microforms. We strive to keep the temperature below 68F and the humidity below 28%. Immediate attention is needed if it goes over 70F or 30%

The colder, the better.
http://www.dpcalc.org/

George Nonte was a really great old-time gun writer.

In the 1976 edition of "Gun Digest" he did a nice review of the Star PD. Based in part on that review I did get a PD and it turned out to be one of my favorite guns.

I have never heard of an armorer in any branch accepting back a dirty weapon.

No kidding.

Re dehumidifiers. Nice if you can get them. Anyone see them in deployed areas?

In Vietnam, where we really could have used them, an armory often consisted of a CONEX or similar. Or a room in a hootch. Best thing I ever saw in use was a bare 40 watt light bulb, or two. Crude but seemed fairly effective. They would have helped in Germany but couldn't get them there either.

CONEX is a very large dehumidifier in our current theater of operations. Large, metal box with the sun beating down on it all day really keeps the relative humidity down. Besides when weapons get damaged in theater (rust counts as damage) there are entire MOS for repairing and inspecting weapons post-deployment.

Back in the day, at least in the Air Force, all that was done "out of hide." Which often meant finding a few guys who were brought up with guns and turning them loose, starting with the old M16 comic book and an Army TM or two. After they were done with their regular job, that is. At a good sized base we were lucky to have one or two SAMTU guys to take charge. And sometimes we could find some Army or Marine volunteers to help out. We always made it work.

I thought it was pretty silly my first year in the Army, spend an entire day cleaning just one little m4, then turn it in, only to pull it out the next day and do it again all day. Then, when I deployed to Iraq, it all hit me. I knew every nook and cranny of my weapon, all of my weapons. I knew when they weren't running right, timing was just a little off on the M2, firing slow on the M240 or 249. I knew every little detail about my weapons, and I kept them clean religiously. Not arms room clean, but cleaned and lubed insides.

Shortly before I became an NCO, I would watch and listen to the newer privates half-ass their cleaning. I'd watch them get turned back by the armorer, I'd watch as they sat around pretending to clean their weapons, wait awhile then try again with the armorer. They knew eventually the armorer would take it.

When I became an NCO, I smashed on that behavior. I smashed it because I know that my personal and professional standards for weapons maintenance has saved my bacon on a number of occasions. Now, joe schmoe wants to let himself get killed because he's lazy, fine, but he ain't takin' me or any of my guys with him.

I saw it like this as a Cavalry Scout: at the end of the day, you took care of your horse, saddle, and saber. Or your vehicle, associated equipment, and weapons. In the old cavalrymen days, no cavalryman did anything personally oriented until those three things had been seen to first. So all my soldiers being scouts, I ensured they followed tradition. It's all about the discipline to learn and practice it the right, long, hard way; so that way, when you need to expedite things in the field or downrange, you make sure the important stuff is done while trimming the "excess".

Saint, that makes a lot of sense.

When you started out didn't your NCOs state the purpose of all this compulsive rifle cleaning? I'm guessing the lesson would sink in more quickly and be less mind numbing if the recruits knew why.

Oh, I'm sure they did on many an occasion. I probably got a whole lot of "cuz that's what you're told to do" too. But with privates, it's in one ear and out the other with most everything told to you. It's when the lesson sinks in the hard way when privates generally tend to "get it". Myself included.

twofifty said:

When you started out didn't your NCOs state the purpose of all this compulsive rifle cleaning? I'm guessing the lesson would sink in more quickly and be less mind numbing if the recruits knew why.

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The lesson is learned better when you become the wise old codger and not told it by someone. You can tell a private but they won't really "get it" until they have privates of their own to pass pearls of wisdom onto. And thats the pride of an NCO.

Hats off to you

Without wishing to be offensive, it sounds like the work of NCOs who train recruits is like parenting teenagers...