Anyone see the Ghost Gun episode on Drugs Inc?

First of all, anyone who has the skill to make a gun freehand has the skill to make tooling to make more guns, and they will make tooling.

I suspect you are thinking of the thriving gun industry in the Khyber region of Afghanistan and Pakistan. It is a myth promoted by the media for reasons unknown that they make guns free-hand. They have lots of machine shops.

Mike

I saw that episode. It was quite interesting. The "ghost guns" they showed are actually 1911's made in the Philippines out of scrap metal by highly skilled home builders. They are cloned right down to US importers marks, then given made-up serial numbers so they look absolutely legit, but if traced come up blank.

I've made several guns out of blocks of steel, including two rolling block rifles, an 06 and a 45-70. I made everything but the barrel and the screws. It isn't done "By hand, with files". There were plenty of machine tools involved!

I have talked to people who have seen the gun bazaars in Pakistan. The locals like to perpetuate the myth that it is done by hand, with files. They ain't!!! The machine shops are hidden elsewhere. I was also told that some of the parts on the rifles (Enfields, # 1 Mk 3s) had what suspiciously looked like areas where original arsenal marks were removed. In other words, they were surplus British parts.

Making a gun from scratch, by hand, is enormously difficult, even something as stupid simple as a Rolling block. Doing it with no power tools is virtually impossible. At least in a short period of time.

I saw a special on ghost guns recently also - It may have been the same one. They were making 1911's out of a block of steel with files and a hack saw. There was no machinery involved. I didn't catch anything on how they came up with barrels. They showed one illicit operation in the Philippines. They said they made 4 or 5 guns a month and sold them to a buyer unfinished, but test fired, for $115 ea.. That was their sole source of income.

They traced the guns all the way to the US and showed them being sold for $800 +/-

Kyber Pass gun maker at work.
Where theirs a will, theirs a way!

http://www.historicalfirearms.info/post/105729215704/thoughts-on-kyber-pass-copies

rc

"They traced the guns all the way to the US and showed them being sold for $800 +/- "



^^ And you believe that.


Willie

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I cant see too many of those guns making it over here and going for those high prices when theres plenty of cheaper guns (stolen or otherwise illegal) readily available in the country already.

Most of them end up in Chicago, NY and California - it's a thriving market because of the gun laws. These gang bangers don't want cheaper guns, they want "clean" 45's. Big Boom as they say.

That was a good show.

A 'Clean .45' to me means, drop in a different barrel and make a different ding on the breach face with something.

That Equals, No Match of bullet or case.

rc

A cheap 1911 without MIM? Hmmmmm

So your saying you believe everything reality tv tells you?

"They traced the guns all the way to the US and showed them being sold for $800 +/- "



^^ And you believe that.


Willie


Yup, I do. They aren't selling them at the LGS to you or me, - they're selling blasters to druggies and gangbangers who want guns with absolutely no traceability.

I watched the show until my BS meter went off the charts. There is no advantage to a criminal for obtaining an "untraceable" gun. Plus why would you want a gun made by some dude in the Philippians when you can break into a car and steal one in many metropolitan areas? Or have your girlfriend buy you one from Cabelas?

If you get caught in the act of committing a crime with a gun, it doesn't matter if its "untraceable".

If you are a felon and get pulled over with an "untraceable" gun you will still get locked up.

If you shoot somebody with an "untraceable" gun you still have to toss it because the casings and projectile are the traceable elements.

If you live in California and have to have your girlfriend register a gun for you it is still easier to find guns elsewhere. Like somebody's house or truck.

"Tracing" a gun does little because it just shows a chain of custody that might lead to the end criminal but usually doesn't.

Use a little common sense and realize you are watching a show made for entertainment. These are the same people who bring you Locked Up Abroad, Drugs Inc., and the infinite number of prison shows.

Hopefully somebody else out there thinks like I do. The mob of the 1960s and bikers of today have a better understanding of gun laws. Things like machine guns and sawed off shotguns get you in a lot more trouble and do the same thing as a stolen revolver. The only criminals that would buy such guns are idiots and I'm glad they are dumb enough to drop a couple extra bucks instead of buying a proper weapon.

HB

"They then go into Mexico and double the price, get sold to Cartels and gangs, in LA, for a couple grand by the time they are done"
Uh-huh. Why steal when you can drop your banger's life savings?

"...and look and function "according to the LEO's who they interviewed, just as well as a Colt or any other name brand"."
Uh-huh. Come with a warranty and makers' marks, I'm sure.

"They are untraceable creating their high value, the show also told how the "burners" which are worth $160 "average, because they can have an unknown number of crimes and bodies attached to them, get moved out of the U.S.A. and sold for over a thousand in places like Lebanon, where there is no tracing done."
So, the people willing to straight up murder other people in cold blood, are terrified of using a murderer's gun because the police can magically trace a gun to them or their place of residence. Coupled with the buzz-word "burners" this assertion smacks of outright fabrication that some cop made up to sound gritty on TV.

"The thing that amazed me, was the quality of what I could see was in these 45's."
It's not the quality you can see that matters...

"Even the cops and bad guys said they are "Perfect" in every respect , and have no FTE's or FTF's. They shoot every time and are valued over conventional guns."
Uh-huh. I'll just bet

"How can these guys do this using only hand tools, it seems impossible."
They have nothing better to do, and a well-equipped machine shop in the back run by a generator. Grandpa sits out front polishing slides on a whetstone for the benefit of gullible customers interested in artisan quality firearms. Savvy people know that 'artisan quality' is the last thing you want in a weapon you depend on (I think even a lot of Ed Brown/etc. customers would agree with this )

"They also make Every type of rifle and pistol you can name."
I'd love me a knockoff Borchardt

"I remember another news show that documented a town, I think in "Turkey" where everyone who lived there was in the gun clone business, making AK's and AR's in the market place."
The location is the "Khyber Pass" you hear bandied about, usually jokingly and in reference to Century builds. If their pistols are anything like their Martini Enfields...look out. That said, I'm sure every nation with lawless regions (Turkey is big-time included in that list, these days) has an equivalent black market firearms district, and Turkey does have a vibrant legal firearms industry, so the demand and skill are both present. Therefore the guns are present

"Can it be that simple to do this with no machine shop? Forget 3d printers, they make a full gun in a day."
Would you believe you can build a full-auto STEN submachine gun from the Lowe's plumbing department in an afternoon? Not that you would (obviously), but repeating guns are incredibly simple machines, far less technical than even a crude steam engine.

You have to remember that these Khyber Pass guys are, first and foremost, salesmen. Their livelihoods depend on people thinking their guns are somehow special or superior to the other 20 guys' goods at the marketplace, and that their offerings are so technically demanding that no one could possibly compete with them. That attitude is utterly pervasive in post-industrial America, and many other places as well, to be sure. So they cook up this nonsense of cavemen-savants forging mystical implements in the fires of Mount Doom, hand-crafted with superhuman skill into the pinnacle of technical accomplishment.

In reality, those 1911s you see are either factory-produced (obtained by some sort of means) or made in very small quantities for very well paying customers, as the "flagship model" of the little gun smithing business. The guns that actually comprise their production are;
-Crude blowback pistols (think Hi Point but usually in a weaker chambering or unsafe), either hammer or striker fired, and you're lucky to get two shots off without a jam. And luckier the safetyless design didn't put one of them into your leg, first.
-Revolvers, but mostly in nations with very little native firearms presence. It's weird, but in places where neither skill, knowledge, or resources for firearms are present, revolvers are favored since they are more easily made without machines (conversely, they are really hard to make with machines). These are universally manually-rotated and extraordinarily dangerous. I've seen pictures of 50cal muzzle loader revolvers with wire topstraps. They look cool, though, and if you don't know how to make a gun that works, you might as well make it look awesome.
-Cruder open bolt blowback SMGs operating by slamfire. Easy to make, hard to screw up, and even harder to break. If they can obtain or make a halfway decent magazine design and ammo, they're about 95% of the way there. Models like the Luti (looks like a Tec 9) are commonly made everyday by gangs from Australia to West Virginia.
-If rifle ammo is prevalent, or if the customers need a long gun for sheer utility (hunting, defense, revolution, whatever), locked breech bolt actions or single shots are common. The choice is made based on their tooling, with cruder tools favoring the Martini Henry and other 17th century designs over the modern, forward-locking turnbolt.

I've never even heard of cottage-industry belt feds, anti-materiel rifles*, or even light machineguns. The limiting factor is most likely materials, the builder being either ignorant or unwilling to undertake the engineering required to attempt much beyond a beefy single shot of proven design. These guys are out to make money on the fringes, after all --they don't have time for R&D, ambitious projects, and no, not high production standards, either.

TCB

*I have heard of DIY soupcan bazooka the IRA apparently were brave/foolhardy enough to occasionally use

Like most reality TV, if you watch it, watch it for entertainment value instead of actually hoping to learn anything. Just because it says it happened that way on TV doesn't make it so....

Anyone see the Ghost Gun episode on Drugs Inc?

Click to expand...

It was mentioned January 6


"Hit piece on "Ghost Guns" Jan 7 Wed 10 PM ET - NGC"


http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=770295
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Dr.Rob said:

It was interesting, and strangely 'neutral' until it mentioned 'gun show loopholes' as part of the larger narrative.

Click to expand...

I agree. They milked the gun show loopholes like crazy. Sometimes I think the liberal producers staged a couple seens like the one guy who said "in America, you can buy as many guys as you want. Like chocolate from a candy store" SMH

Reality TV, REALLY???

rcmodel said:

Where theirs a will, theirs a way!

Click to expand...

Where there's a mill there's a way





Mike

There are lots of places like that around the world.

I saw a program that showed craftsman making S&W revolver clones in their shack in the Philippines. They had templates made up for all of the parts.

Oh, my God. I just randomly clicked to the test fire scene. That is the most over-dramatized tripe I've ever seen. "If it fails...it could kill him." "Tests his gun...without protection." "Any flaw in the gun...could cause a jam."

Man, I know it's supposed to be entertaining, but seriously. As a guy who has built a couple guns, and thoroughly understands the mechanics involved at this point in my self-edu-macation, such drama-mongering (not 'fear' mongering since it isn't even scary) is pure, weapons grade narm. I'll try to watch some more, but I'm crawling out of my skin after twenty seconds. Makes it really hard to believe that anything, anywhere, anybody in this production has the slightest validity.

Okay I tried watching another fifteen seconds in another segment:

Oh my God, oh my God, the first segment about 'untraceable' guns as narrated by the most cartoonish of villains I've yet seen (seriously; sunglasses over a ski mask over a balaclava, and talking through a voice modulator. The guy looks like X the Eliminator crossed with Darth Vader )
"With this gun, criminals can get away with murder"
--That tears it, this is the most irresponsible thing I've ever seen. This goes beyond ignorance or hyperbole, this is outright propaganda. Nat'l Geographic, right? Good to know where they lie (both meanings)

ETA:
I suppose the video does have a certain train wreck quality, in that it becomes more palatable the longer you look at it. The assertions that the illicit guns are 'identical in every way' to manufacturers' offerings is total bunk; no knock-off product, especially illegal ones, has ever bothered to go to such lengths. Not buying. The folks making the mockumentary obviously don't know Dillenger's prison-crafted "replica" from a 32 Colt, so why should I take any of their (or their even more untrustworthy subjects') hyperbolic statements seriously?

Given how over the top and wildly stupid the 'Arizonan' at the beginning was, I actually think it might be Mark Giffords in disguise. Seriously, we have no reason to believe the cos-players filmed were anything but actors (especially since I'll bet NG would be accessory or something if they didn't tattle)

Let's see, a 'jungle workshop' with no visible surface grinders producing mirror-flat brushed 1911 slides, oh, and with perfect roll pins, too. No lathe, and circular barrel features. Those boys must really be good

Check the attachment. You're telling me NG never felt at least a little silly at any point during production? "I'm sorry sir, but it's hard to take you seriously looking like that. Can we just film you in silhouette, or something?" "No. I am the Gun Gimp, and have a reputation to uphold"

TCB

(Sorry, I usually try to be more open-minded, but this is just bad. It's like trying to make it through a 45 minute MDA manifesto, or something)

yeah lets believe everyyything we see on tv.

just like how it seems the cops have no idea on how the film crew is able to find the "most hunted drug lord in the wash dc area", go to his drug labs, and see how he makes various narcotics. and who does it for him.

seriously, you think that if "dea agent jones" thought the drug labs and people shown for the "criminal" elements on those shows were REAL, that it would even get on tv?