.30-06 OAL questions

Welcome to the forum.
What I do is, find the most accurate powder/primer/bullet combination and then work on the distance from the rifling. Of course you will probably have to adjust the powder charge at some point. Be warned, when you bring the bullet right up against the rifling you most probably will raise the pressures. Be careful...

For instance with one of my Rem 700's in 25-06 I started with Hornady's tested oal which happened to be about 50 thousandths off the rifling. My best loads and groups was under an inch so I thought I'd play with oal to see if it made any difference in group size. All my loads were at Hornady's tested length and I loaded a batch .040", and .030", .020, and at .010". After testing in my rifle there was noticeable tightening of the group at .030". Groups were rounder and slightly better than my loads that were .050". Shorter than .030" in my rifle with my components and groups got worse and not better. Worth the time and expense doing testing. In a hunting rifle I would not want anything touching the lands and I wouldn't go under .010" especially if hunting something that bites or could trample you. I agree to find your best load 1st then test overall lengths.

I own a Remington 700 in .270 win and the problem you are going to run into is when you try to get real close to the lands is, you wont be able to feed rounds from the magazine. When you are seating the rounds longer just make sure the rifle will feed from the magazine or it becomes a single shot.

From what you are posting, you seem to have the process down pat. Just make sure when you find the COAL your rifle likes, take it outside and load the magazine then cycle the rounds before you take it out in the field. Nothing worse that realizing something wont work when trying to take a follow up shot. Good luck and happy shooting.

What i do is mske a dummy round. I keep seating it a couple thousandths deeper until it passes the plunk test. Then i set mine .015 off the lands. I then work my loads up until i find the powder, bullet, primer combo i like. Then i try moving coal .005 from .10 to .025 off the lands to see what it likes. Normally the sweet spot is .015 or .020. This is for my x bolt 30-06

I believe you are way over thinking it.
Just barely seat a bullet into a case. Then incrementally seat the bullet until the action will close on the round.
When seating to the grooves, I like just a slight pressure to close the bolt as most of my ammo is for hunting.
Fortunately for me, all the '06's I've ever loaded for gave good/best accuracy with bullet seated to at least 1-bore diameter of bullet in case neck. ie: base of bullet is at least .310" below case mouth. The majority of dies and rifle chambers do better with bullets seated deeper in the case neck.
The only rifle's I have that shoot significantly better with bullets touching the rifling are two Remington Mod-7's. One in 7mm08, the other in .260Rem. They both have short enough throat's that the bullets "touch" at 2.820-2.835" and will feed through the magazines at that length. Most of the '06's I loaded for had Looonnggg throats. The most accurate one was a Mauser MkX. You couldn't seat a 150gr bullet to touch the lands. But, seated to ~3.325" oal, It would shoot 1-hole groups at 100yds with Sierra,Speer, or Nosler BT's over most any "reasonable" powder charge, though it preferred IMR4350 with Sierra 165's.

To get much better than moa from a Rem 700 in '06, you'll likely need to change trigger's, or adjust to minimum what you have; glass bed the action, free-float the barrel, and perhaps even have the chamber re-cut and barrel re-crowned.
1moa with a "box stock" Rem. M700 ain't that bad... regardless of what some my say on internet...
I've only had one M700 shot 1/2 moa and it still needed "work". My M700ADL synthetic in .22-250 need the action glass bedded, trigger adjusted to ~2.5lb (minimum that it's still safe), barrel free-floated and fire-lapped.
Now, with Sierra 50,55, or 63gr bullets and H380, it will shoot in the "4's" or perhaps better. And, oddly enough, it shoots better with bullets seated to 2.350" or SAAMI max, not touching the lands... go figure!! The deeper seated bullets are more likely more concentric with the bore, than those seated further out. Substitute a Hornady, Remington,Winchester, or Privi-Partisan bullet and groups open to 2" or larger...

So, if looking for sub-moa with an '06, I recommend:
1. Norma brass, or Lapua if you can find some. Federal has also worked good for me. others don't like it. Remington and Winchester may require some "work" to uniform to get sub-moa accuracy.
2. Sierra Bullets; 165gr and 180gr have given me best results, though 150's may work.
3. IMR4064, or IMR4350, or RL15 powder. Other "may" work, but I know these work well in my bolt action .30/06's. The M1 however "requires" H4895.... though it doesn't "gag"on IMR4064...

This is assuming that your rifle is "sub-moa" in the first place...
but the deer I've shot never questioned the accuracy of my rifles... I however, had to do my job of putting the bullet where it needed to be.

Here is a link to a description of the plunk test in the context of loading for pistol. I am finding this thread very interesting and timely as I am just beginning my work on a load for my first .30 06.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=506678

utvolsfan77 said:

Thanks ArchAngelCD, rg1, and notaglockfanboy. I appreciate all of your comments and suggestions.

ArchAngelCD, the best load I've found so far is 165 grain .308 diameter Nosler Accubonds using Winchester brass (factory ammo fired in my rifle and neck sized only), Winchester large rifle primers, and 56.8 grains of IMR4350 seated at 3.320" as recommended in the Nosler reloading manual for this bullet weight. That is .020" under the SAAMI maximum of 3.340". I started at 53 grains and worked upward from there in .02 grain increments, and the best 5-shot group I got was right at one inch. However, my groups probably would have been a bit tighter had I allowed the gun to cool down between shots. Because this is primarily a hunting rifle, I only let it cool between each 5-shot group.

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That's extremely close to what I'm loading.
With a 168gr Sierra MatchKing I'm charging 58.0gr H4350
With a 165gr Sierra GameKing I'm charging 57.0gr H4350
With either bullet I charge 57.0gr IMR4350 and all with the same OAL you use, 3.320"

Good info. Arch. I was wondering if you or anybody else have tried the Hornady 168gn HPBT Match bullet? That's what I bought for my first load. It was between that and the Sierra Matchking and I went with the Hornady only because they were $7/100 cheaper. I have not loaded any yet.

Gadawg88 said:

Good info. Arch. I was wondering if you or anybody else have tried the Hornady 168gn HPBT Match bullet? That's what I bought for my first load. It was between that and the Sierra Matchking and I went with the Hornady only because they were $7/100 cheaper. I have not loaded any yet.

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I interchange the Sierra and Hornady 168gr Match bullets and if one is better than the other I don't shoot well enough to prove it. I do like the Sierra bullets a little better because the are slightly more uniform but like I said, shooting both shows me no difference.

Good to know. That's what I expected. I'm pretty sure I don't shoot well enough or at the extended ranges where any difference would be noticeable. Thanks.

Gadawg88 said:

Good to know. That's what I expected. I'm pretty sure I don't shoot well enough or at the extended ranges where any difference would be noticeable. Thanks.

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Don't get me wrong, in my Howa both bullets and ammo will produce sub 1/2MOA accuracy @100 yards and not much more @200 yards.

utvolsfan77 said:

ArchAngel, because I'm already so close to max loads at current seating depth, I'm going to make up some batches and lengthen the COAL. As soon as I get a day warm enough to shoot (this blood thinner docs have me on is really kicking my rear in the cold), I'll head to the range and let you know how everything turns out.

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That blood thinner does make a difference!

With the exclusion of seating on the lands, and correctly considering the pressure my experience is a little different. It is the principle of cause and effect. And considering I am talking hunting rifle and hunting loads.

I often would hear how changing the jump would have a major bearing on accuracy. Based on some range work I had done I was not convinced of the what was cause really was.

As I had extensively used the OCW method I was in no doubt that charge weight affected accuracy. OCW clearly illustrated this through the opening and closing of groups as one approached and then left an accurate load. I then became a little curious when I decided to load the same load but with a greatly decreased jump and achieved the same size group but at a different charge weight. Now 14 groups of 3 each hardly can be considered a statistic but it got me thinking. It was not until I got QL that I tried to test my theory.

So rather than using the OCW theory I applied the OBT theory and loaded up 5 groups of 0.2mm decreasing jumps BUT altering the load such that the load compensated for the seating depth and maintained pressure an therefore time for the bullet to exit the barrel. The groups were all pretty similar given the operator skill (or lack thereof). So that meant that altering the jump while maintaining the internal pressure had no real affect on accuracy.

That "proved" to me that is was not the physical distance to the lands that mattered but rather that the accurate node was based on specific barrel time and as long as that was met the load would shoot accurately.

Back to effect and cause, so what happens with altering jump is that it alters the internal case capacity which alters the pressure which alters the barrel time which in turn can fine tune one onto an accuracy node. Effectively it takes a coarsely tuned load and fine tunes it. The same effect can be achieve through altering the charge weight in smaller jumps.

I also found out that on a 7.62mm that the effect of inertia caused as one approaches the lands only comes into effect as one approaches about 1mm off the lands (0.040").

Indeed that is what I am saying.

But I find more control using charge weight as a means to tweaking load than jump as it is almost impossible to compute the exponential effect of the pressure as you approach the lands. Additionally unless you are seating according the ogive you may find that bullets vary more in length that you thought. So if you are loading 0.60mm off the lands and have a bullet variance that my friend recently had of +0.3mm then suddenly you have halved your distance to the lands which has appreciable impact on the pressure.

PM me your e-mail address and I will send you a spread sheet to complete with parameters required by QL. Lets simulate a load and see where you are.

utvolsfan77 said:

ArchAngel, because I'm already so close to max loads at current seating depth, I'm going to make up some batches and lengthen the COAL. As soon as I get a day warm enough to shoot (this blood thinner docs have me on is really kicking my rear in the cold), I'll head to the range and let you know how everything turns out.

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Looking forward to the range report.
(and I don't want to talk about blood thinners or water pills either! :banghead: )

Hi. First remember that a .30-06 Rem M700 is a hunting rifle, not a target rifle. It may or may not be capable of sub-MOA accuracy. Not something that should stop you from trying though. Working up groups is kind of fun al lby itself.
You had the trigger done? Or done it yourself. M700 triggers are adjustable.
Next that hunting bullets aren't made for MOA accuracy. 1"-1 1/4" is close to that now though.
Nor is 'off the lands' something you need to do without first having a load. Off the lands is more of a load tweaking technique.
Mind you, I think you're there(absolutely there for hunting) with those groups, but if you want to try for the absolute best accuracy, use 168 grain Matchkings and IMR4064 and do a trigger job.

Not sure if it was your post on another forum or not, but I responded to one VERY similar to this one and since I don't remember I will respond here as well.

For starters, your loading for a "hunting" rifle, presumably to hunt with. If so then you should not be concerned with how close to the lands you are as long as the loaded rounds will fit the magazine and feed properly that should be your main concern.

That said, if your loading single rounds for target then yes your off the lands measurement might help you, however like was illustrated above by Andrew Leigh, you will come to find that you actually have more control using the powder charge to adjust things than you will using the seating depth.

I have been loading for the 30-06 since I was around 8yrs old when my pop would sit and watch over my shoulder as I loaded his hunting rounds. Not saying I am an expert by any stretch, but I have found that through the years seating to a OAL of 3.250" will fit in most any magazine produced for this caliber, so this is usually where I start out at. I have loaded for 03A3's, Remingotn's, Howa's, Winchester's, and even a couple of others here and there. They all ate this length right up like a kid on ice cream.

Also like ArchAngel pointed out there is something REALLY special about that 57'ish grain area when using H-4350. I have had some many great groups with it I really don't even like using anything else. It simply works and works great over a broad range of rifles and bullets.

To be honest I am about as anal as the next guy when it comes to trying to squeak out the last bit of accuracy from a rifle. Some of mine I have piddled with for over a year before finally getting things where I like them. But the overall consideration I have is that the rounds HAVE TO feed properly from the magazine as I hunt with them all and I DO use the second and third and even fifth round on occasion when I am shooting hogs. Hell sometimes I even have time to get off a couple more after reloading, so yes I want things consistent.

I use my mag length as my initial OAL then I work up to the max load for the particular powder I am using. If I see something of promise I will come back to that load and try more of it. If I don't get quite what I like I will start seating deeper by .005" at a time and shoot a few more. Usually within one or three moves things will come together and will stay put. Sometimes however I have found that when we get big temp swings things will spread out considerably. This however has more to do with the powder than the rest and I know this. So I have gone to using more stable powders like the Hodgdon Extreme and with the others not loading on the ragged edge of a node. That is what bites you in the rear. I will gladly sacrifice some velocity for a consistent preforming load any day.

So anyway it looks like you are well on your way. I hope that everything comes together for you and your rifle. That particular make and model has been a REAL performer with that H-4350 load and either the 150 or 165'ish weight bullets. Good luck, be safe, and have fun.

I have nothing to add pertaining to the load itself. The only tidbit I'll throw out there is, and I don't mean to insult anyone's intelligence, make sure the bore is good and clean. Get all that copper and powder fouling out of there.