Bolt-action vs. AK semi-auto in cal .308 or 7.62X54R

aks are very reliable and very durable, you wont be giving up much of anything outside of accuracy and range

Get a PTR91
Go home happy
(This coming from someone with a bad case of VEPRitis)

Its basically a non-issue...

How far can you reliably hit a target?

A good AK shoots about 3" groups with steel case ammo, and 1.5" - 2" with good quality ammo. That makes it a 300+ yard weapon in the hands of a capable shooter when optics are equiped.

Something like the Zastava PAP 308 costs $600-$700, uses the standard Warsaw Pact side rail (multiple optics options), and can make use of much higher quality domestic 308 match ammo. Field reports show average group size of 1.5" with high quality 308 ammunition. Thats not bolt gun accurate, but it is still a 500 yard gun with a good optic and a good shooter behind it. I suspect a 308 Saiga would be similar.

Are you really that shooter? Are you actually capable of making use of sub-MOA bolt gun, or will a 2" rifle with a medium power optic take you out as far as your skills are capable of shooting? Be honest with yourself.

Personal preference for me would be a bolt action but that is just me.
I agree 100% what Mr.Trooper said, AK rifles & Saigas are very reliable & for most people are quite capable of accurate shots out to 300-500 yards.

Are you really that shooter? Are you actually capable of making use of sub-MOA bolt gun, or will a 2" rifle with a medium power optic take you out as far as your skills are capable of shooting? Be honest with yourself.

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I abhor this argument. The gun and shooter must be taken as a package. If I am a 2MOA shooter and the gun is 2MOA, that is 4 MOA. I'd rather have a 1MOA gun so at 300yards my spread is 9ish" not 12ish".

Are people really getting 1.5" out of the Zastavas? They seem pretty affordable.

An AK Platform with quality ammo is quite an accurate rifle. I found that out in the 80's with .223 Norinco 86S, was quite an eye opener.

Combloc ammo , for the most part isnt nearly as consitant as US issue. Czeckloslovakia was the exception , for sure.

Throw in there that most untrained conscripts were not shown how to best place bullets, the Soviet mass spraying of rounds as opposed to the US well trained and aimed, seems to have contributed as well to its not so accurate beginnings and reputation.

Ive seen a couple local guys touting the Zastavas 77's and they seem kind of happy all around, being an AK, Im not suprized at all, given general Arctic weather in mid winter. I bet with quality ammo its a really good, ( our store keeper get good stuff) but Ive never held one yet, least of all fire one, but if I had the chance, Id give one a go at the current prices.

my 5.56 built AK-74 will shoot groups of equal size to your standard M4 configured AR-15s with the same SS109 ammunition, the myth that AKs are inaccurate comes from fighting in asia and the middle east against people who are not very well trained and couldnt hit the broad side of a barn with a laser beam.. but also, if youre comparing some half assed put together century AK with surplus ammo and its short sight radius up against a quality made AR-15 with newly manufactured ammo which is how the AK and AR have often been tested for accuracy, well then yeah the AR will be much more accurate, but same ammo, same sights (say a scope or red dot for example), and decent build quality in both rifles you wont notice much difference

i've even seen saiga 308s and yugo M77s in .308 caliber shoot 1" groups at 100 with factory ammo which is what youd expect from a well built AR-10 or M1A.. in fact, my 5.56 AK will often shoot better groups with the same brand and type of ammo as my mosin nagant which is a bolt action

bottom line is you have no need to concern yourself with the reliability, durability, or accuracy of the AK platform, itll perform better at all these categories than you will

I live in a rural area, I don't have just one zombie gun I have a couple, and a few related shooters to carry them with me, here is my list with ammo in the bag
22LR Sig on the 45 platform
45 national match
Rem. 870 12ga 26" barrel
Rem 700 308 Varmint barrel
AR 15 A2
M1A
and in case I need to stop a tank
Rem 700 LR 300 win mag

The AKs will come along if I can find someone to carry or drag them.....

Well I guess everyone that I have ever seen shooting a AK must own the cheap junk ones, I have never seen anybody with a target of 1moa at 100yds with an AK.
And Ive never seen anyone shoot an AK out to 200+ yds range, And when it comes to 300 and beyond Ive never seen a AK anywhere to be seen, I have seen a lot of AR-15 out to 400+ yds and AR-10 to 600 all the time that is as far as the Range allows opening a 850 yd range soon I hear. Most AK's around here are 100yd spray and pray. They make a lot of noise but Ive never seen a target I would be proud of, These guys are lucky to hit the paper 4 or 5 times at 100 yds . I saw one guy next to me who shot at least 2 mags, That is 60 rounds, He had 5 hits on a 18"x18" paper. I guess a serious shooter might be able to hit better but most AK shooters are not that way, That I have seen, Its a rave right now to own one, The Gangsta chopper
You just don't see serious shooters around here shooting them. AR's, M1A's, Bolt Guns
I keep hearing some guys are serious with them, I know they are dependable, I will keep my eye out for a serious shooter with one and find out what it is about.

greyghost01 said:

Well I guess everyone that I have ever seen shooting a AK must own the cheap junk ones, I have never seen anybody with a target of 1moa at 100yds with an AK.
And Ive never seen anyone shoot an AK out to 200+ yds range, And when it comes to 300 and beyond Ive never seen a AK anywhere to be seen, I have seen a lot of AR-15 out to 400+ yds and AR-10 to 600 all the time that is as far as the Range allows opening a 850 yd range soon I hear. Most AK's around here are 100yd spray and pray. They make a lot of noise but Ive never seen a target I would be proud of, These guys are lucky to hit the paper 4 or 5 times at 100 yds . I saw one guy next to me who shot at least 2 mags, That is 60 rounds, He had 5 hits on a 18"x18" paper. I guess a serious shooter might be able to hit better but most AK shooters are not that way, That I have seen, Its a rave right now to own one, The Gangsta chopper
You just don't see serious shooters around here shooting them. AR's, M1A's, Bolt Guns
I keep hearing some guys are serious with them, I know they are dependable, I will keep my eye out for a serious shooter with one and find out what it is about.

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plenty of serious shooters shoot AKs and are quite accurate with them, my 5.56 AK will shoot just as well as any military spec 16" AR15.. im guessing you probably surround yourself with other AR-15 fanboys and dont get much of an opportunity to see anything beyond them

only a complete idiot would underestimate the accuracy of an AK

I just stated in my area I have never seen AK's on the serious shooting line only on the 100 yd lanes where your gangster type usually hang out. In fact Ive never seen more that 1 or 2 scoped AK's,

Im not a fan boy of anything, I don't really care what you shoot or who its made buy, I do take my shooting serious, And my accuracy more serious If I see a serious shooter with an Ak I will go have a look as it would be interesting to see what its all about. I only know one guy that has one and he does not have a scope on it and cant hit anything with it. Ive never shot one .

Are there certain models that shoot more accurate than what the normal gangsta type bring to the range?

Keep dreaming Justin...

I am so surprised at the accuracy claims of AK's. I have owned several and own a Saiga now. The Saiga is an honest 3 MOA shooter with American ammo. The 6 or so others including SKS's ran 5-8 MOA with any ammo. I am an NRA certified instructor, US Army expert shot and have tested rifles on an actual bench at actual measured ranges. I have never seen any AK platform shoot as well as some of you claim. I would be willing to have a friendly competition. My stock AR against your stock AK, factory ammo 300 yards. Oh I forgot, this is the internet, never mind.

Oh I forgot, this is the internet, never mind. Go back to riding your Unicorns.

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Internet ninjas have unicorns! Soooooooo jealous!

A "well built" ar should be a sub half moa gun.. I know I own them.. a thrown together AR, or your basic bushy/dpms should be a 1moa gun... I know I own those too....

Retread the thread title and op. Accuracy and ARs were not mentioned. I fell into the trap a bit, so back on topic...

As far as reliability and durability, the bolt rifle would have fewer moving parts to wear, no gas tube to clean or clog, no mags to lose or wear out, etc. The 700 bolt has longer reload time so likely less shots fired meaning longer barrel life.

Unless you were shooting a ton, I'd say either rifle would still be kicking long after you stop.

43 years ago I was a "designated rifleman", got to see a few enemy doing the spray and pray routine, my Remington 700 in 30-06 or sometimes my M14 with a Unertel scope or even a Redfield scope settled that problem with one shot.

a lot of the delusions people have about AKs being inaccurate usually comes from seeing someone with a half-assed century build firing 40 year old surplus ammo, my AK i built from a parts kit myself, with a quality barrel and i typically shoot SS109 ammo, because my AK happens to be in 5.56, i am able to compare it directly to the AR15 and put an equally equipped AR beside mine, same length barrel, same optics, theyre going to shoot about the same.. now if you believe putting an old AKM firing 40 year old military surplus ammo with open sights against an AR-15 with a match grade barrel firing match ammo and a scope in order to prove your point about ARs being more accurate, whatever makes you feel better

as for the question of 308 vs 7.62x54R, just forget about 7.62x54R entire, the cheap surplus ammo is awful, incredibly inaccurate stuff intended to be fired through LMGs.. its such poor quality ammunition that its not even worth considering, so any consideration of 7.62x54R should be done keeping in mind the costs of manufacturing or purchasing new factory ammo which can safely be said puts the cost of 7.62x54R well above that of .308, plus then you have to deal with the rims causing issues in any semi automatic, and .311" bullets, so forget 7.62x54R entirely

that said, the saiga .308 is a very good choice as are the yugo M77s, you'll find more information in terms of aftermarket, conversions, and mods for the saiga though.. problem with .308 AKs is the magazines, or lack there of.. if no one makes an AR-10 magazine adapter, like they do AR-15 magazine adapters for the 5.56 AKs, then i dont think itll be too long before someone does.. until then there are guides to modify M14 magazines for the 308 AKs

with a bolt action, power, range, and accuracy are your friends, capacity and rate of fire are not, if you find yourself in a defensive scenario, know your limits, and play to your strengths, i dont have any issues with someone wanting a bolt action for defensive situations if they know how to properly use it

No data on that, just opinions. To many "X" factors to really gauge
those two questions. For me anyway.

I've never understood the mentality of buying a cheap gun that doesn't have great mechanical accuracy, but that's chambered in a cartridge that costs the better part of a buck a round.

Given the choice of a bolt gun, which can be easily 1MOA, or a semi-auto that's 3MOA, I'd take the bolt gun.

Given the chance to choose my own, I'd go with an AR10 and get pretty much the best of both worlds.

I guess it depends on your scenario. If you plan on hunting and sniping there is hardly a better choice than a 700 in .308. I like my Tikka a lot but I have owned several 700's they have always been very accurate, very sturdy, reliable and parts and gun smithing are very widely available. It is the action most used for competition and sniping. The bolt action is more reliable in adverse conditions too. I was just watching "Life below Zero", and Erik, hunting Caribou just lost a chance at a shot due to the bolt not closing fully on a semi auto.
On the other hand if you expect to hold off a gang of raiders, you will want a semi auto. Having been in gunfights I know what the winner is but I don't want want to argue about it. Think reliable, ammo, accuracy, range, effectiveness, capacity, volume of fire and fast follow up shots. I think the US military has it right and it's time proven but you are entitled to your own opinion. I am also a big fan of the M-14 but you can't buy a real one.
I think the best choice of ammo is .308 because of the quality, accuracy and effectiveness over the Russian but again pick your own.
I have hit a pop up torso target at 600 meters with a .308 M-14, and 400 meters with a M-16 in training easily with standard issue guns and ammo, no scopes, no bench, standard military shooting positions. And I know they are vastly superior in combat. Not that the others are useless. They have killed way too many too. Now I remember why I would not touch a gun for ten years after I got home.

in semi automatic, "loose tolerances" play a very small role in the accuracy of the cartridge, as does the gas system, the bullet is already on its way out the barrel before the bolt even begins to unlock, and garands and FG42s were both long-stroke and capable of considerable accuracy.. in the case of AKs, you'll find a lot of poor quality barrels from parts kits imported before the barrels were omitted, you also find a lot of surplus ammo barely suitable for a semi automatic

an example of this in reverse is take the mosin nagant, a bolt action, SHOULD be reliable, but lets face it, poor quality ammo, old barrels built in a rush for war. you end up with a pretty inaccurate rifle (the russian WWII models anyway)

the quality of the barrel and the ammo have far more to do with accuracy than anything else, and AKs being made today in western calibers (5.56/7.62x51) are being built with barrels of superior quality than a lot of the old AKMs originally were and the ammunition available in these calibers far exceeds the quality of what you find in 40 year old eastern european surplus cans.. this is why .223 and 308 AKs are capable of matching any other semi of equal configuration (not going to compare a 16 inch carbine to a 24" barreled match grade M1A)

unfortunately for the .223/5.56 caliber AKs is they generally have the AKM pattern barrels which are fairly thin, they lose accuracy more rapidly as the barrel heats up which gives an edge to saiga 308s and veprs which use much heavier contoured barrels, the vepr if im not mistaken using the RPK contours, veprs get below 2MOA with surplus .308 ammo, some users reporting 1 to 1.5 MOA with some of the better quality surplus ammo

so if your goal is to use a saiga 308 or a vepr, you i wouldnt worry about what accuracy they are capable of, as ive said in previous posts though, ignore the 7.62x54R, the cheap ammo you get from surplus is so awful its not even worth consideration