M855 buyers need to settle down.

Trent said:

Jeez guys.

Crossbows and conventional bows and arrows will penetrate level 2 and 3 armor.

If they followed the logic of what truly defines armor piercing we'd be throwing stones at game animals.

This is the Government that we are talking about though; what they do rarely makes any sense from a scientific perspective.

The issue here is SS109/M855 should never have been listed as armor piercing in the first place because it does not meet the material requirements of (18 U.S.C. 921(a)(17)(B)

The ATF overstepped their bounds ORIGINALLY when they defined it as armor piercing.



NO. ABSOLUTELY NOT, BY FEDERAL STATUTE THE ATF FAILED TO FOLLOW, THE PROJECTILE IS NOT ARMOR PIERCING.

That statute reads:

(B) The term “armor piercing ammunition” means—
(i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper or depleted uranium; or

(ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile.
(continued)

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SS109/M855 fails to meet EITHER requirement, because the jacket is not nearly 25% of overall weight, and the CORE is not 100% ("entirely") steel. It's approximately 1/3 steel, 2/3's soft lead.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=773583

If they fail to heed the advice offered by people who are writing in letters, there's a very high probability of a successful suit against them for their "creative re-interpretation" of the law. The law is black and white. The ATF is moving in shades of orange and chartreuse here.

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"From one or a combination of" is the part that I'm fuzzy on. Maybe that's the angle they're playing. Who knows. I'm not saying what they're doing is logical, just trying to grasp the statute and how they might have come to conclude this needed revisiting.

The people who say M855 isn't AP seem to be basing it all on the notion that everything inside the jacket is the "core." Why do you think a bullet can only have two parts? M855 could be described as having a copper jacket, a lead base, and a core made entirely of steel.

HisStigness said:

People that got screwed over by the 7N6 5.45 ammo situation I don't blame for buying it up.

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7n6 was another round which was incorrectly classified as Armor Piercing.



Like SS109/M855, the 7n6 is not *entirely* steel; part of the core is lead.

The construction like that was done for the same reasons the US SS109/M855 was dual core - to avoid violating international agreements on shooting "armor piercing" ammunition at human beings.

MAKster said:

The people who say M855 isn't AP seem to be basing it all on the notion that everything inside the jacket is the "core." Why do you think a bullet can only have two parts? M855 could be described as having a copper jacket, a lead base, and a core made entirely of steel.

Click to expand...

core
n.
2. the central or most important part of something.

The round would still fly if the steel component of SS109 were replaced with an air gap. (See the Russian round for an example of an air gap)

The round would NOT fly if the lead component of SS109 were replaced with an air gap. Wouldn't have enough mass to travel and the bullet would turn itself inside out as soon as it left the muzzle, from back pressure.

By your argument and the definition of the word "Core", the lead IS the core; the steel is not.

(And by that same argument 7n6 would be more likely to be counted "AP" while SS109 would not)

fireman 9731 said:

Its not about the specific round, its about the principle. Its a back door slime ball attempt to restrict gun rights. End of story.

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Fireman gets it. Some of you don't. It is simply the new way to come at our rights. Soon you will see new taxes on guns and ammo. A .05 cents per round tax seems fair to most none gun people. Yet, we understand that is a $5 tax on a 100 rd box of .22 ammo.

I have no AR's and this issue would not affect me, however, they get this and they take more. So I am faxing an objection to the blow contact info. Here is where you can e-mail or fax:

The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) has announced it is seeking to ban commonplace 5.56 M855 ball ammunition as "armor piercing ammunition." ATF is seeking public comment on the proposal, so all industry employees, target shooters and gun owners should contact ATF to oppose this unnecessary ban, which is truly a solution in search of a problem and that raises serious questions about executive agency attitude and overreach. Stopped cold on Capitol Hill, this action appears to be the Obama administration's attempt to pursue gun control by other means.



Commonly available steel-core, "green tip" M855 and SS109 rifle ammunition that is primarily intended and regularly used for "sporting purposes," like target shooting, has been exempt from federal law banning armor piercing ammunition for decades. There is no question that the 5.56 ball ammo has been in wide use by law abiding American citizens for sporting purposes.



It is with the increasing prevalence of handgun versions of rifle platforms, that ATF now apparently sees an opening to now ban the widely used M855 and SS109 ammunition.



It would be legally permissible to continue to possess and use so-defined "armor piercing" ammunition currently possessed. However, rescinding the decades-old exemption will have a major impact. It will become illegal to manufacture, import, distribute or sell at retail this very popular rifle target ammunition.



ATF's proposed "framework" for applying the "sporting purpose" exemption test rewrites the law passed by Congress to disregard the manufacturer's intention that a projectile or cartridge is "primarily intended for a supporting purpose." ATF inappropriately places the focus on how criminals might misuse sporting ammunition in a handgun.



Just as disturbing, language used by ATF in its long white paper refers to criminals as a "consumer group." The implication that the industry purposely sells firearms and ammunition to criminals is misleading and echoes the shopworn charges of the gun control lobby.



Manufacturers will face serious limitations in their ability to develop and market alternative ammunition in other popular hunting rounds, such as .308 rifle hunting ammunition, if ATF's so-called "framework" is adopted. This will have a detrimental effect on hunting nationwide, especially in California where a total ban on traditional ammunition for hunting is being phased in now.



ATF is soliciting comments on how it can best implement withdrawal of this exemption while "minimizing disruption to the ammunition and firearm industry and maximizing officer safety". Under the proposed framework, 30-06 M2AP cartridges would continue to be exempt because there are no multi-shot handguns generally available that accept such ammunition.



The proposal is useless since standard lead-only 5.56 ammunition is "armor piercing" simply due to the round's velocity. Rifles in this caliber, or any caliber for that matter, are rarely used in crimes.



ATF will accept comments on this proposal until March 16, 2015. Email or write ATF today and tell them you oppose this unnecessary, misguided and damaging ban on commonly used ammunition for America's most popular sporting rifles.



Email: [email protected]



Fax: (202) 648-9741.



Mail: Denise Brown, Mailstop 6N-602, Office of Regulatory Affairs, Enforcement Programs and Services, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives, 99 New York Avenue, NE, Washington, DC 20226: ATTN: AP Ammo Comments.

The BATFE classified M855/SS109 as armor piercing LONG ago.

What they are talking about doing now is removing the sporting purpose exemption on the ammunition - it has always been considered and listed as an armor piercing cartridge by the BATFE.

The difference is subtle but very important.

The point of fact is they incorrectly listed the ammunition as armor piercing in the first place under LEOPA. The removal of LEOPA exemption is a moot point - it never should have been listed as armor piercing in the FIRST place. (the projectile fails to meet the materials qualifications set up by the federal statutes, which is how 'armor piercing' is determined.)

They made a mistake a long time ago in classifying it as armor piercing, then quickly exempted it, rather than retracting their mistake. Now they're leveraging and compounding their mistake to effectively ban the ammunition.

Click to expand...

I understand the difference; point is that it is statutorily not an AP round, and thus trying to accuse a person of using AP ammunition in a handgun because they loaded M855/SS109 into an AR pistol, PLR-16, etc. would force ATF to defend their untenable position in court - possibly even SCOTUS - , and ultimately have to reclassify it is as ball ammo. Or lobby to have the statute changed, but it's a little late if they're already being sued.

Now, of course, they face the same potential legal challenge after the reclassification/removal of exemption, but that's not the point. We all know ATF isn't interested in small time prosecutions on very tenuous precedents, but rather the piecemeal restriction and eventual eradication of 2A via these backdoor methods; in another thread, you acknowledged the statement by another member that the ultimate goal is to ban lead on an environmental angle, and then ban any of the inexpensive alternatives with the armor piercing statutes. Eventually we're talking about bullets that are literally made of gold, with all other metals being too light to work well, too toxic (EPA) or too hard (AP).

Trent,

The BATFE classified M855/SS109 as armor piercing LONG ago.

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Actually, they didn't. From an ATF publication, "Federal Firearms Regulations Reference Guide", section 17, states:

Exemptions: The following articles are exempted from the definition of armor piercing ammunition.
5.56 mm (.223) SS 109 and M855 Ammunition, identified by a green coating on the projectile tip.

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I see this as them getting a foot in the door to ban as much ammo as they would care to reclassify.The continued rewriting of the rules allows them to get away with this. I'm not sure how the Sig Arm Brace is not connected to this judgement, but I do see it as tiny steps toward an outright ban.
Clearly if we don't have the people in office to fix this, we need to get them there.

Below is the contact information for the Public Comments to the ATF-E

Denise Brown
Mailstop 6N-602, Office of Regulatory Affairs, Enforcement Programs and Services
Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives
99 New York Avenue, NE
Washington, DC 20226:
Fax: (202) 648-9741.

email to: [email protected]

Jeez guys.

Crossbows and conventional bows and arrows will penetrate level 2 and 3 armor.

If they followed the logic of what truly defines armor piercing we'd be throwing stones at game animals.

This is the Government that we are talking about though; what they do rarely makes any sense from a scientific perspective.

The issue here is SS109/M855 should never have been listed as armor piercing in the first place because it does not meet the material requirements of (18 U.S.C. 921(a)(17)(B)

The ATF overstepped their bounds ORIGINALLY when they defined it as armor piercing

Click to expand...

++1 On this post

Just went into one of our LGSs and they were sold out of M855, which isn't surprising, but they were almost out of M193 also. The guy behind the counter said that most of the people buying it thought that the ATF was banning the sale of all surplus/out-of-spec/overrun 5.56 ammunition. :banghead:

Matt

Tom488 said:

Trent,


Actually, they didn't. From an ATF publication, "Federal Firearms Regulations Reference Guide", section 17, states:

Click to expand...

To exempt it from being armor piercing, it first has to be listed as a LEOPA restricted item. I believe that happened back in the early 80's. The exemption followed.

Hard to find any original documents on it on the web, since there's so many hits for ATF + SS109.

morcey2 said:

Just went into one of our LGSs and they were sold out of M855, which isn't surprising, but they were almost out of M193 also. The guy behind the counter said that most of the people buying it thought that the ATF was banning the sale of all surplus/out-of-spec/overrun 5.56 ammunition. :banghead:

Matt

Click to expand...

"Thanks NRA"

https://www.nraila.org/articles/20150213/batfe-to-ban-common-ar-15-ammo

Their headline on the post they sent out via social media to 4.2 million gun owners started out with the header:

"BATFE To Ban Common AR-15 Ammo"

Now you know how those who use .22 rimfire have been feeling for the last 2/3 years.

Quote:
Originally Posted by morcey2 View Post
Just went into one of our LGSs and they were sold out of M855, which isn't surprising, but they were almost out of M193 also. The guy behind the counter said that most of the people buying it thought that the ATF was banning the sale of all surplus/out-of-spec/overrun 5.56 ammunition.

Click to expand...

Matt
"Thanks NRA"

https://www.nraila.org/articles/2015...mon-ar-15-ammo

Their headline on the post they sent out via social media to 4.2 million gun owners started out with the header:

"BATFE To Ban Common AR-15 Ammo"

Click to expand...

I saw that. Ugh. Hopefully enough people will actually read the article and figure out that there is (currently) no threat to availability of any other 5.56 ammo, but I doubt it.

Glad I have been slowly building stocks any time I had extra cash and saw 5.56 for under $0.40/rd after tax or shipping.

Now you know how those who use .22 rimfire have been feeling for the last 2/3 years.

Click to expand...

You say that as though those of us who shoot 5.56 A)haven't been affected by the rimfire pinch and B) weren't around in 2013.

This won't be the first time 5.56 ammo has taken a jump in price/drop in availability, and it certainly won't be the last.

Yeah, it's gonna suck, and it's gonna suck a whole lot more for people who didn't learn after the last 2 or 3 instances. Same as the .22 shortage did. Some of us figured out a long time ago, though, that if you want to weather these events, you need to "buy cheap and stack deep". There are plenty of members here sitting on thousands or tens of thousands of .22 LR rounds, just as there are quite a few of us with a pretty decent stock of 5.56 on hand.

If you use the stuff, keep enough of it around that you aren't forced to pay exorbitant prices when supply exceeds demand. Or resign yourself to another hobby in the interim.

Yeah if this tracks the last run on ammo, after the factory ammo is gone, reloading components will follow in short order.

I'm stocked up on everything, have been for a long time. Still reloading bullets I bought back in the late 90's when common metals were nice and cheap.

Yeah if this tracks the last run on ammo, after the factory ammo is gone, reloading components will follow in short order.

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Probably will to a degree, as the nature of ammo buying seems to be that folks who went out in search of one thing and didn't find it decide to buy something else that is available.

My suspicion is that:

M855 will become unobtainable at <$1/round by week's end.

Within a couple weeks, most other 5.56 will be more difficult to find and running north of $0.50/round on average.

cheap 5.56 bullets will also become scarce for a bit.

Other AP rounds with long-standing exemptions will command a premium for some time.

As for powder, yeah..........that really hasn't come back, so I don't see much change there. Ball powders like H335 and H322 that are ideal for .223 have been difficult to find for quite awhile, and pull down like WC844 has been gone since SH.

That said, I don't think we'll see a run on anything other than 5.56 and assorted AP ammo.

Of course, this is just my opinion, so take that for what it's worth.

This just happened about 30 min ago. I was at the local gun store picking up some reloading components and walked by the .223 / 5.56 shelf. There were boxes of American Eagle 62 grain green tips (M855) for $10 for 20. There were several large boxes that looked like they said 150 rounds. One of the workers said, "That is the stuff we aren't getting any more of" and I watched a guy grab all of them.

When I got to the register a guy was there with just one 150 round box. I said, "The ATF got you out today?" He said, "I wanted to get some before people start selling it online for ridiculous prices".

Maybe everyone will be looking at the M855 and I can get some .22 LR.

I can not condemn anyone that buys something because the government is about to say you can't. I do understand.

Funny thing is, at the indoor range they won't let me shoot M855 ammo!

Yea I got some, no biggie, but I prefer the 55 gr fmj and JHPs anyway.

BUT, protest this folks. It's WRONG. If you have the right to arms, you have the right to the ammo, and we are talking miltary basic weapons and ammo.

Deaf

Death by a 1000 nibbles. ATF is a cancer that spreads unchecked if all of us go to sleep. Time to write another letter.

Is there any mention yet in Congress - of reining in ATF?

Ordered 6 cans on-line (For $172) Sat mid-day after striking out a 7 Walmarts. I build guns with fast twist match grade barrels and I like practice fodder with similar POI to match grade. Now who exactly is telling me to "settle down"?

Mike

.

M855 buyers need to settle down.

Click to expand...

Now who exactly is telling me to "settle down"?

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Summah Donnah naoh. <--- old SNL reference



Joking aside, and although I've nothing chambered in this topic's caliber, I'm sending my two cents' worth to Ms. Brown at the BATFE.