1/2 MOA at 200 yds, iron sights
- Thread starter 000Buck
- Start date
- Status
Swamprabbit
Member
I can believe it. When working up an 80 grain load for my AR highpower match service rifle, I was able to shoot 1.5" groups at 300 - obviously on a still day and from a bench rest. Most highpower shooters I know wouldn't think the rifle/load is good enough until it would do 0.5 MOA.
Do CMP rules allow benchrests? What kind of benchrest would allow 1/2 MOA at 200 and 300 yards? Is the gun totally bolted to the Earth or what? I just cant believe how bad of a shot I must be if this is all true. I have a hard time grouping 4" with open sights at 100 yards(just using a sling)....
litman252
Member
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ what he said.
I'm in the same group with you OOO buck. My best group, prone with bipod, including lots of luck and enough wind to blow the bullets on target was .5" for three shots. Never done it before or since. I'm usually around
1.5" for same position and same gun.
Tony
I'm in the same group with you OOO buck. My best group, prone with bipod, including lots of luck and enough wind to blow the bullets on target was .5" for three shots. Never done it before or since. I'm usually around
1.5" for same position and same gun.
Tony
30Cal
Member
Benchrest??!?!? Heck no! 1/2 MoA is pretty good. I generally shoot about a 2.5-3" group at 200yds with my M1A (10 rounds). Some folks like to talk about a one time five round group as if it was typical of a ten shot string though.
Highpower has four stages: Standing slowfire at 200yds, Standing to sitting rapidfire at 200, Standing to prone at 300yds and slowfire prone at 600yds. You can use a sling in all but the standing stage.
Highpower has four stages: Standing slowfire at 200yds, Standing to sitting rapidfire at 200, Standing to prone at 300yds and slowfire prone at 600yds. You can use a sling in all but the standing stage.
cracked butt
Member
1/2 Moa? dunno. 1 Moa? for sure.
I was working the pits at 200 yards for a service rifle match last year and the target in the next lane over was being shot by our club's best shooter.
The bullet hole marking disk is about 2" in diameter. When a bullet hits the target, you place the marker in the bullet hole so the shooter can see where he hit.The guy's first shot in was in the x-ring, and every shot after hit the bullet hole marker. The only shots that wandered out of the x-ring and into the 10-ring were during the rapid fire portions of the match. Even on standing, he was nailing the x-ring every time.
I was working the pits at 200 yards for a service rifle match last year and the target in the next lane over was being shot by our club's best shooter.
The bullet hole marking disk is about 2" in diameter. When a bullet hits the target, you place the marker in the bullet hole so the shooter can see where he hit.The guy's first shot in was in the x-ring, and every shot after hit the bullet hole marker. The only shots that wandered out of the x-ring and into the 10-ring were during the rapid fire portions of the match. Even on standing, he was nailing the x-ring every time.
litman252
Member
What club Cracked??? Racine??? Thats damn nice shooting.
TIA
Tony
TIA
Tony
Jon Coppenbarger
Member
OK can it be done, well the rifle can do it with the ammo for the rifle.
Can the shooter do it, Well if he could I most liekly would reconize his name as there are not a heck of alot of them that can do it.
Now did he do that I can tell you for a fact NO he did not.
Here is my reason for that before you say yes he did.
Now I take it's a given that he did that from the slow prone position for a few reasons.
for one the 1/2 moa group would be a nation record and it has not been done by ANYBODY.
if a reduced 200 yard match the prone rapid 300 yard reduced target for 200 yard firing is a 200-13X and the x ring for that target is like 2 1/4" or something like that and in other words right at 1 moa not 1/2 moa which he states.
If you are talking about the 600 yard slow prone target thats reduced to 200 yards the x ring is something like 1 3/4" or something close to that.
(do not have my rule book in front of me for exact inches right now)and there have not been any clean x scores in that either and that would be at 1 moa for the record.
Now having said that can I or anybody I know hold 1/2 moa for a few shots with open sights why yes I and many other can untill the following happens.
#1 light changes
#2 wind changes
#3 my eyes change
#4 many other reasons
now if everything is right and I have a good day 50 to 75% of my shots will stay in the magical 1 moa area and I have only seen 5 clen 200 prone slow score in the last 2 years in CO. I did 2 of them and another guy who happened to win the national service rifle chapionship did it twice and another friend did it once.
On the rapids its done on a regular weekly basis here during the season but nothing even close to 1/2 moa.
Can the shooter do it, Well if he could I most liekly would reconize his name as there are not a heck of alot of them that can do it.
Now did he do that I can tell you for a fact NO he did not.
Here is my reason for that before you say yes he did.
Now I take it's a given that he did that from the slow prone position for a few reasons.
for one the 1/2 moa group would be a nation record and it has not been done by ANYBODY.
if a reduced 200 yard match the prone rapid 300 yard reduced target for 200 yard firing is a 200-13X and the x ring for that target is like 2 1/4" or something like that and in other words right at 1 moa not 1/2 moa which he states.
If you are talking about the 600 yard slow prone target thats reduced to 200 yards the x ring is something like 1 3/4" or something close to that.
(do not have my rule book in front of me for exact inches right now)and there have not been any clean x scores in that either and that would be at 1 moa for the record.
Now having said that can I or anybody I know hold 1/2 moa for a few shots with open sights why yes I and many other can untill the following happens.
#1 light changes
#2 wind changes
#3 my eyes change
#4 many other reasons
now if everything is right and I have a good day 50 to 75% of my shots will stay in the magical 1 moa area and I have only seen 5 clen 200 prone slow score in the last 2 years in CO. I did 2 of them and another guy who happened to win the national service rifle chapionship did it twice and another friend did it once.
On the rapids its done on a regular weekly basis here during the season but nothing even close to 1/2 moa.
Jon Coppenbarger
Member
Man this post is moving fast.
Saw a few nice targets last year and that 3" x ring in off hand is over 1 1 1/2 moa and the record is no where near 200-20x but its close and I have seen a few cleans on the off hand but they are few and far between.
the rapid yes see them all the time.
Butt the best target I saw was last year shot by Sheri Galleger as she hit the disk at 600 yards on all 20 shots but 1. the week later she won the world title for long range at bisley England and two weeks before she won the regional at the whittington center in the Palma match with a perfect 450 score.
So yes it can be done and her mother just set the national record early this year with a perfect 200-20x at 600 I believe. So do they all stay on the disk I do not know as I was not there but if not they all were close.
Dang she beat me both days by 2 or 3 points as a fact two women were the only ones that beat me in ther master division the whole weekend, It was a plot agains't me.
Saw a few nice targets last year and that 3" x ring in off hand is over 1 1 1/2 moa and the record is no where near 200-20x but its close and I have seen a few cleans on the off hand but they are few and far between.
the rapid yes see them all the time.
Butt the best target I saw was last year shot by Sheri Galleger as she hit the disk at 600 yards on all 20 shots but 1. the week later she won the world title for long range at bisley England and two weeks before she won the regional at the whittington center in the Palma match with a perfect 450 score.
So yes it can be done and her mother just set the national record early this year with a perfect 200-20x at 600 I believe. So do they all stay on the disk I do not know as I was not there but if not they all were close.
Dang she beat me both days by 2 or 3 points as a fact two women were the only ones that beat me in ther master division the whole weekend, It was a plot agains't me.
Richardson
Member
- Joined
- Jul 1, 2003
- Messages
- 172
This guy at the gun store sounds like a guy where I work...
His wife picks up a hunting rifle she's never shot, with iron sights, standing, and shoots through a coke bottle opening, knocking out only the bottom of the bottle, and it was either at 50 or 100 yards...
His father in law shoots 1/2" groups all day long, at 300 yards, while standing, with a Weatherby, using any ammunition you give him.
Somehow I haven't had a serious firearm discussion with him since the day he told me these things.
Richardson
His wife picks up a hunting rifle she's never shot, with iron sights, standing, and shoots through a coke bottle opening, knocking out only the bottom of the bottle, and it was either at 50 or 100 yards...
His father in law shoots 1/2" groups all day long, at 300 yards, while standing, with a Weatherby, using any ammunition you give him.
Somehow I haven't had a serious firearm discussion with him since the day he told me these things.
Richardson
kennygarza
Member
000Buck- Did this guy happen to work in Ft. Worth, at Elk Castle?
wanderinwalker
Member
I might be convinced to believe that it was a 1-MOA group at 200 with irons. Definitely possible. Especially with an AR-15 set up for Highpower competition. But 1" is a little tough to take, unless he was bench-testing the rifle.
I'll get hammered for this, but I have produced two, .75-1MOA 5-shot groups with my AR-15 at 200 from prone. Neither was at a match and both times the stars just lined up right. My average is more like 2.5MOA for 10 rounds from prone. Somedays more, somedays less, but I can bank on that 2.5MOA group reliably. Sadly, it never seems to want to center in the 10/X-ring, but I'll get there with practice, hopefully.
So, I know 1" is possible with an AR-15. At 100 yards!
With a benchrest. Otherwise, I'd call BS.
I'll get hammered for this, but I have produced two, .75-1MOA 5-shot groups with my AR-15 at 200 from prone. Neither was at a match and both times the stars just lined up right. My average is more like 2.5MOA for 10 rounds from prone. Somedays more, somedays less, but I can bank on that 2.5MOA group reliably. Sadly, it never seems to want to center in the 10/X-ring, but I'll get there with practice, hopefully.
So, I know 1" is possible with an AR-15. At 100 yards!
With a benchrest. Otherwise, I'd call BS.ACP230
Member
My best groups from prone at 200 with my iron-sighted M1A were:
Two shots touching. They were sighters in a match. Unfortunately, they were also on my neighbor's target.
Three shots in one and three quarter inches.
I shot these in practice. The sun was behind me and lit up the target like a searchlight. I probably would have gone on and messed it up with two more shots, but someone showed up at the range and I had to get out of prone and move to the benches.
I figure it's theoretically possible to shoot half MOA groups. No wind, ammo that your rifle likes, good light, and a shooting jacket and tight sling would all be required. I haven't seen it done though.
Two shots touching. They were sighters in a match. Unfortunately, they were also on my neighbor's target.
Three shots in one and three quarter inches.
I shot these in practice. The sun was behind me and lit up the target like a searchlight. I probably would have gone on and messed it up with two more shots, but someone showed up at the range and I had to get out of prone and move to the benches.
I figure it's theoretically possible to shoot half MOA groups. No wind, ammo that your rifle likes, good light, and a shooting jacket and tight sling would all be required. I haven't seen it done though.
0luke1
Member
In my experience, 1/2 MOA is possible with a well made AR. In the prone position, I regularly shoot less than 1 MOA 4 or 5 shot strings (one ragged hole at 100 yards), but over a 20 shot string, that usually opens up to 1 MOA.
This level of accuracy and shooting is good enough for clean scores (200 out of 200 possible points). Many master and high master shooters can regularly do this in good conditions.
Note: I almost always shoot at reduced range matches (100 or 200 yards). At 600 yards the effect of wind, mirage and ammunition variables make 1 MOA performance much tougher to actually achieve in real life, in my opinion. Although I'll hopefully make high master this summer, I don't think a reduced range high master is as good as a 600 yard high master by any stretch.
The state of the art equipment, however, is up to the task of 1/2 MOA. Claiming to do that regularly has the odor of caca de vaca.
I shoot a fulton armory upper, colt lower, wagner rear site , kreiger 1:7.75 twist, 26" barrel with a 4" bloop tube. I shoot Black Hills blue box 69 grain ammo.
Luke
This level of accuracy and shooting is good enough for clean scores (200 out of 200 possible points). Many master and high master shooters can regularly do this in good conditions.
Note: I almost always shoot at reduced range matches (100 or 200 yards). At 600 yards the effect of wind, mirage and ammunition variables make 1 MOA performance much tougher to actually achieve in real life, in my opinion. Although I'll hopefully make high master this summer, I don't think a reduced range high master is as good as a 600 yard high master by any stretch.
The state of the art equipment, however, is up to the task of 1/2 MOA. Claiming to do that regularly has the odor of caca de vaca.
I shoot a fulton armory upper, colt lower, wagner rear site , kreiger 1:7.75 twist, 26" barrel with a 4" bloop tube. I shoot Black Hills blue box 69 grain ammo.
Luke
Powderman
Member
Why does everyone find this so hard to believe? And, no flame intended, why do some people think that they HAVE to recognize the name if it was done?
Rifle: M1903A1 Springfield, dated 1918, as issued.
.30-06 cartridge
150 grain milsurp ball (weighed for consistency)
47.0 IMR 4895
Federal Large Rifle primers
Lake City 1982 Match brass
5 round group: 2" at 225 yards, with issue iron sights, from the bench.
Rifle: 6.5x55 Swedish Mauser, as issued.
6.5x55 cartridge
140 grain Remington bullets (weighed for consistency)
35.5 grains IMR 4895
Federal Large Rifle Match primers
PMC brass
5 round group: 3/4 inch at 100 yards (with one called flyer), with issue iron sights from the bench.
It CAN be done, folks, with the proper aiming point, and just remembering the basics.
Jerrywahid
Member
I've only been to the 100 yard range with my AR once so far but I have a question or two. I shot what was probably about a 4 or 5 inch group. I am shooting a stock 16" bushy. Can I expect to improve my groups quite a bit with some practice and getting used to my rifle? Also, how do you discern one inch at 200 yards without a scope? I was lucky to see the white circle in the target I was shooting at 100 yards... Maybe I'm just not very good... I'd say if you are shooting .5 moa with a 14x scope you have a pretty sweet set up...
Jerrywahid
Member
Do you have a link to the basics?
30Cal
Member
I would highly recommend getting Jim Owen's short book "Leather Sling and Shooting Positions" available at www.jarheadtop.com
It covers the basics and more very well and is worth the read just for the interesting "Sea Stories."
Ty
It covers the basics and more very well and is worth the read just for the interesting "Sea Stories."
Ty
Steve Smith
Moderator Emeritus
I agree with Jon, I truly believe it is possible, but I'd recognize his name too. If he were serious, he'd be shooting with a sling (no bench) and iron sights.
0luke1
Member
In my experience, 1/2 MOA is possible with a well made AR. In the prone position, I regularly shoot less than 1 MOA 4 or 5 shot strings (one ragged hole at 100 yards), but over a 20 shot string, that usually opens up to 1 MOA.
This level of accuracy and shooting is good enough for clean scores (200 out of 200 possible points). Many master and high master shooters can regularly do this in good conditions.
Note: I almost always shoot at reduced range matches (100 or 200 yards). At 600 yards the effect of wind, mirage and ammunition variables make 1 MOA performance much tougher to actually achieve in real life, in my opinion. Although I'll hopefully make high master this summer, I don't think a reduced range high master is as good as a 600 yard high master by any stretch.
The state of the art equipment, however, is up to the task of 1/2 MOA. Claiming to do that regularly has the odor of caca de vaca.
I shoot a fulton armory upper, colt lower, wagner rear site , kreiger 1:7.75 twist, 26" barrel with a 4" bloop tube. I shoot Black Hills blue box 69 grain ammo.
Luke
This level of accuracy and shooting is good enough for clean scores (200 out of 200 possible points). Many master and high master shooters can regularly do this in good conditions.
Note: I almost always shoot at reduced range matches (100 or 200 yards). At 600 yards the effect of wind, mirage and ammunition variables make 1 MOA performance much tougher to actually achieve in real life, in my opinion. Although I'll hopefully make high master this summer, I don't think a reduced range high master is as good as a 600 yard high master by any stretch.
The state of the art equipment, however, is up to the task of 1/2 MOA. Claiming to do that regularly has the odor of caca de vaca.
I shoot a fulton armory upper, colt lower, wagner rear site , kreiger 1:7.75 twist, 26" barrel with a 4" bloop tube. I shoot Black Hills blue box 69 grain ammo.
Luke
Steve Smith
Moderator Emeritus
Luke, just wondering, what rounds do you use at 600 yards in your FA gun?
Steve Smith
600 yard XC Service Rifle Master
Steve Smith
600 yard XC Service Rifle Master
cracked butt
Member
Sheboygan.
Jon Coppenbarger
Member
Well as I said its very possible to do it for a certain amount of shots but he stated it was in a highpower match with a dpms rifle at 200 yards.
Think about it this way Dpms match rifles come with a standard type barrel with a 1-9 twist which will limit the ammo you use to most likely 75 hornady's and less and thats fine as I do not see much problem with that given it is a calm day.
Yes a clean at 200 is ok and it does get done, I did more than once with a M1A and have done it a couple times with a ar15 but that is for 20 shots and in a match with all of the other conditions around you like 9 to 14 others firing at the same time.
Now I have found on occassion that I might have 2 to 3 different groups and in each one group they might be under 1" but alas they were not all together either but 2 or 3 seperate groups.
It is not that hard to keep them for 4 or 5 or sometimes more shots in a 1/2 moa group and most folks in highpower shooting should be able to do that at each match they go to if they are a higher expert or above.
I have always said a decent shot thats experience in this game at 100 yards could only fire 15 of his 20 shots at 100 yards in slow prone because the last one's are just going threw the large hole in the target anyway.
Now most folks that are doing this sport and have chimed in do say yeah its possible but the record books do not show it.
There are alot of great shooters out there and anyone of them could possibly do it and with the coming of the ar15 in competition amazing things in scores and groups are happening every year.
so for me I would say myself and a few other on a nice day could keep at least 4 out of 5 in there but all 20 it has to be proven to me with a few things.
#1 in a match
#2 would like to see the target as if I set a national record on a reduced target or any target I sure would of kept it.
but it could be done but you can set that record and never even come close to 1/2 moa and if it was in rapid prone or rapid setting for 20 shots as the national record holder last year took up most all of the x ring for that record and that was at rapid sitting and it was 1 1/2 moa and thats 3 times bigger a group.
I did 6 shots at 600 yards two weeks ago at 1/2 moa as the second shot was a x followed by the next 5 hitting the spotter and the group was 3 " but alas the wind fixed that string quick enough after that.
I also know a few guys that find it much easier to clean a 600 yard target than the reduced one but I find that the reduced one is easier for me.
Think about it this way Dpms match rifles come with a standard type barrel with a 1-9 twist which will limit the ammo you use to most likely 75 hornady's and less and thats fine as I do not see much problem with that given it is a calm day.
Yes a clean at 200 is ok and it does get done, I did more than once with a M1A and have done it a couple times with a ar15 but that is for 20 shots and in a match with all of the other conditions around you like 9 to 14 others firing at the same time.
Now I have found on occassion that I might have 2 to 3 different groups and in each one group they might be under 1" but alas they were not all together either but 2 or 3 seperate groups.
It is not that hard to keep them for 4 or 5 or sometimes more shots in a 1/2 moa group and most folks in highpower shooting should be able to do that at each match they go to if they are a higher expert or above.
I have always said a decent shot thats experience in this game at 100 yards could only fire 15 of his 20 shots at 100 yards in slow prone because the last one's are just going threw the large hole in the target anyway.
Now most folks that are doing this sport and have chimed in do say yeah its possible but the record books do not show it.
There are alot of great shooters out there and anyone of them could possibly do it and with the coming of the ar15 in competition amazing things in scores and groups are happening every year.
so for me I would say myself and a few other on a nice day could keep at least 4 out of 5 in there but all 20 it has to be proven to me with a few things.
#1 in a match
#2 would like to see the target as if I set a national record on a reduced target or any target I sure would of kept it.
but it could be done but you can set that record and never even come close to 1/2 moa and if it was in rapid prone or rapid setting for 20 shots as the national record holder last year took up most all of the x ring for that record and that was at rapid sitting and it was 1 1/2 moa and thats 3 times bigger a group.
I did 6 shots at 600 yards two weeks ago at 1/2 moa as the second shot was a x followed by the next 5 hitting the spotter and the group was 3 " but alas the wind fixed that string quick enough after that.
I also know a few guys that find it much easier to clean a 600 yard target than the reduced one but I find that the reduced one is easier for me.
- Status
