1/7 or 1/9 Twist?

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hatt said:
Are you comparing comparable ammo? Expecting cheap 55 grain blaster ammo to keep up with premium heavier offerings isn't exactly fair.

This is a good question. Over time yes. In a succinct double blind study, no. Basically in 3 years, I have shot around 12,000 rounds. Mil 55 vs. mil 62. Same brand 55 vs same brand 62. Reloads 55 vs. 62. And of course I know what I'm shooting so it's not blind to me - ie the human factor is involved. BUT - It's enough that friends shooting my gun have even made the casual observation such as ".......wow last time I was grouping tight.........what changed???" (last time 62gr, this time 55gr).

If I never shot 62gr bullets, maybe I would have never noticed!
 
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Bottom line. Shooting long bullets well is more of a plus than shooting short bullets well in the AR world.

That's an opinion. Unless you do a lot of long range (400+ yard) shooting, there's really no advantage to using the heavies over a quality 50-69 gr bullet.

Also, if one does primarily varmint shooting, a rifle that handles 40-55 gr. best is more useful than one that is limited to 55+ gr.

I'd be shocked to think that a 1:8 would make bullets "blow up" like the claim says. And they talk about even heavier bullets than 40 gr. doing it.

Entirely dependent on the MV. A 1:7 10.5" barrel won't get the bullet spinning fast enough for it to be an issue. But a 1:7 or 1:8 22-26" tube very well can. A 50 gr at 3,200 is spinning 288K RPM with a 1:8 twist, and that's a rather mild load if we're talking about 22" or longer barrel.

Varmint bullet RPM limits (copied from another forum & edited):

MV * 720 / twist = RPM

Dogtown bullets:
@ 260,000 RPM

Varmint Nightmare bullets:
@ 260,000 RPM

Speer TNT's (low velocity):
@ 240,000 RPM

Hornady V-max & SP's:
@ 290,000 RPM -

Hornady SXSP:
@ 240,000-260,000 RPM

Sierra Varminter:
@ 216,000 RPM

Sierra BlitzKing:
@ 352,000 RPM
 
I'd go with the 1/9 twist for 55 and 62 gr bullets. I have a Colt match rifle (1/7) that needs 69 gr hand loads to do any good with. If you can find a 1/12 twist it does really well with 55 gr.
 
That's an opinion. Unless you do a lot of long range (400+ yard) shooting, there's really no advantage to using the heavies over a quality 50-69 gr bullet.
The heavies are commonly available and usually high quality. Why limit yourself from high quality target and defensive ammo so you can shoot varmint bullets.

Also, if one does primarily varmint shooting, a rifle that handles 40-55 gr. best is more useful than one that is limited to 55+ gr.
If one primarily does varmint shooting with light bullets neither 1/7 or 1/9 is the best choice. Get the proper slower twist.
 
Gents:



I plan on building an AR with a 20 inch upper. I typically shoot 55 to 62 grain rounds. I would think that the 1/9 barrel would be a better choice. I'm lookin at a Stag 1/9 and a BCM in 1/7. Let's put aside the "quality of the manufacturer" arguments and focus on the twist rates. Your opinions?


For 55-62 grain go with the 1:9. I went with a 1:7 on a similar build and regret it. While I love the gun and it is very accurate shooting 75 and 77 grain bullets at long distances, mine won't shoot anything lighter than 68 grain accurately.
 
But it also depends what you'll be using gun for. Is this a gun you will hunt medium sized game with? Or this a varmint or a target gun? It I was hunting medium sized game I'd go with the slower twist rate and ability to shoot heavier bullets. Shooting varmints and paper I'd go with a faster twist rate and shoot lighter bullets.
 
The heavies are commonly available and usually high quality. Why limit yourself from high quality target and defensive ammo so you can shoot varmint bullets.

Plenty of high quality match, varmint and defensive bullets under 69 gr.

If one primarily does varmint shooting with light bullets neither 1/7 or 1/9 is the best choice. Get the proper slower twist.

Other than an A1 pencil barrel, the only tube I know of with a 1/12 twist is the $300 WOA bull. Everything else I've ever seen in precision bull barrels is 1/8 or 1/9. My Wilson 22" bull is 1/8, and is every bit as accurate with 50 gr. V-max handloads as 75 gr. Hornady BTHP match.

Yeah, 1/9 is too fast for a .22-250 or .220 swift. But for .223 velocities, 1:9 is slow enough. You can't over-stabilize a bullet, so as long as you don't exceed it's max RPM, the faster twist won't hurt a thing. Poor accuracy with light bullets and fast twists is a result of bullet deformation; they're not spinning quite fast enough to blow up, but the jackets are expanding radially, causing the core to become loose/deformed. The badly unbalanced bullet starts oscillating, eventually tumbling.
 
Plenty of high quality match, varmint and defensive bullets under 69 gr.
Yeah, and a 1/7 shoots almost all of it except the very lightest.



Other than an A1 pencil barrel, the only tube I know of with a 1/12 twist is the $300 WOA bull. Everything else I've ever seen in precision bull barrels is 1/8 or 1/9. My Wilson 22" bull is 1/8, and is every bit as accurate with 50 gr. V-max handloads as 75 gr. Hornady BTHP match.
Looks like manufactures understand people what to shoot longer bullets vs the shortest.

Yeah, 1/9 is too fast for a .22-250 or .220 swift. But for .223 velocities, 1:9 is slow enough. You can't over-stabilize a bullet, so as long as you don't exceed it's max RPM, the faster twist won't hurt a thing. Poor accuracy with light bullets and fast twists is a result of bullet deformation; they're not spinning quite fast enough to blow up, but the jackets are expanding radially, causing the core to become loose/deformed. The badly unbalanced bullet starts oscillating, eventually tumbling.
You're making the case for 1/7. 55 grain is the lightest bullet most AR owners are ever going to shoot. Maybe the only bullet they'll ever shoot. 16 inch 5.56/.223 isn't going to spin a 55 grain bullet fast enough to deform the jacket. More reason to go with 1/7 over 1/9. You can shoot blasting ammo and any new heavyweight ammo that may come out. IMI has 77 grain OTM for $375/500. What's quality target ammo in lighter weights going for?
 
There is no one bullet that makes all others obsolete, that is the simple way to say it. However, the shooting public and industry are trending toward longer and heavier bullets, with them becoming cheaper and cheaper.
 
Yeah, and a 1/7 shoots almost all of it except the very lightest.

Already said that very early on. Stop making straw man arguments.

Looks like manufactures understand people what to shoot longer bullets vs the shortest.

Or that they understand that, at .223 velocities, 1:9 is slow enough. Did you just skim over my last post?

You're making the case for 1/7. 55 grain is the lightest bullet most AR owners are ever going to shoot. Maybe the only bullet they'll ever shoot. 16 inch 5.56/.223 isn't going to spin a 55 grain bullet fast enough to deform the jacket. More reason to go with 1/7 over 1/9. You can shoot blasting ammo and any new heavyweight ammo that may come out.

Dude, seriously...........you're repeating everything I've already said, but phrasing it as though I said the opposite. Please stop.

Truly, there is no argument here, unless you consider that you don't believe many people choose 40-50 gr loads, whereas I submit that many people do shoot these lightweight bullets. I happen to really like the 50 gr. boat tail V-max, find that it shoots every bit as well as a 75 or 77 gr match bullet out to 400, and is a lot more devastating on vermin. Just because the majority of bullets leaving AR barrels are M193, M855 or other 55-62 gr ball loads doesn't mean that a decent number of people aren't shooting stuff such as the 45 gr. Winchester ammo or the 50 gr. Federal AR223 varmint loads.

Do you have some particular affinity for a twist rate, or do you just want to argue for the sake of arguing? I ask, because it almost comes across that you're offended at the notion that 1/7 twist isn't the end all/be all. If that's your preference, great. Doesn't mean it's best for everyone.
 
Guess the entire AR and ammo market didn't get the memo that so many people wanted to shoot light bullets. Most quality AR barrels for sale are 1/8 or faster. Almost all ammo sold is 55+. I too have some of that WWB 45 grain stuff. Bought it on clearance 8-9 years ago and still haven't shot any of it.
 
Don't forget many barrels with say 1/9 twist may shoot 69gr bullets better than 55gr or vice verse..barrels will be picky some down right honorable about bullet choice. I don't think twist rate 1/7 vs 1/9 is playing any role in accuracy with these guns, chambers etc.

I have only reached bullets failing to reach target when pushed 40gr to around 3800 plus, I don't think you will see this from a ar carbine platform.
 
No master marksman here, just a middle of the road shooter where rifles are concerned. But for the first 30 years or so of my shooting history, for every rifle I shot, it was (please excuse the expression) "hit or miss". For the longest time, I always thought it was either me or the firearm (more likely me). Then about 6 years ago, when ammo first started getting scarce, I vowed to start reloading for every firearm I owned. Initial results were not much of an improvement and about as often, worse result than with factory loads, until I invested in a copy of Bryan Litz's "Applied Ballistics for Long Range Shooting", and took the time to read up on what BC's, twist rates, and stability factors really meant for a given caliber at specific velocities. You can even skip all of that, and go straight to the back half of the book, where, for .224, .243, .25, .264, .270, .284, .308, and, .338, Litz has carefully measured and tested, on the range and not relying on manufacturer's specs, hundreds of bullets, including Berger, Nosler, Hornady, Sierra, Lapua, and several others, and documenting bullet performance at various velocities.

And then -- Sheezam!!! -- using Litz's data, "hit or miss" soon changed to just picking the specific bullet that he says will stabilize optimally for the calibers, conditions, and velocities I shoot to start with, and the results from doing so have been consistently better accuracy. It's really not that hard, but, yes, it is a pretty much "rocket science".

And if you don't reload, then you can still look up the bullet of the factory load your thinking about buying and then seeing if it's likely the optimal choice for your firearm. There are loads for sale out there on the shelf that can be reliably predicted to NOT shoot well in a given firearm, with a just a bit of attention to details It also less expensive than just trying a bunch of different ammo to see which works best.

Bryan's data have been pretty much spot on for what seem to be the optimal loads in my rifles -- .223 Rem, .243 Win, 6.5x55 SE, 7 mm RemMag and 308 Win for each rifle's twist, which, by the way, its easy enough to measure, if like me, you didn't know for sure to start with. And while over-stabilizaton is possibly better than under-stabilization, neither is optimal for putting bullets into the bull. Since the linear velocity of a bullet decays faster than the angular velocity imparted by the rifles twist, even if the bullet doesn't disintegrate, gyroscopic over stabilization can mean that the bullet keeps a "nose up" attitude down range instead of spinning in the axis of the arc of the trajectory, so over stabilization, at least in theory, would tend to adversely affect long range accuracy more than short range accuracy.

The point is well made that bullet accuracy trumps bullet weight. But accuracy is much more than a function of just the bullet's weight, so, it follows that sometimes lighter bullets still shoot better than heavier bullets, even at faster twists. But sometimes that can be the result of having picked the wrong heavier bullet more so than just the right lighter bullet.

Checked the zero of my Sightron scoped CZ-527 Varmint, 223 Rem 1/9' twist, 24 inch barrel just this afternoon. Off front and rear bags at 200 yards, 7 rounds of SMK 69 gr, 25.3 Varget, CCI BR-4 primers, Lapua brass. Chrony says: 2873, 2898, 2873, 2867, 2913, 2917, 2898.

P1010556.jpg
 
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1:8.
Look at the marksman rifles built for the military:
Army SDM-R 1:8" 20" bbl
Seal Recon Rifle: 1:8" 16" bbl
Marine SAM-R: 1:7.7" 20" bbl (started out at 1:7" but slowed to 1:7.7" for heavy bullets in development)
The Navy MK 12 SPR is the lone exception at 1:7"

Mike
 
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Maybe you didn't "hear" me. But either you didn't read my post or you don't take me seriously.

Yeah you're right. I don't take you seriously. Of course I don't read your posts. ;) Come on. I didn't see your post. Sorry. Don't be so touchy about it.

I've read about 100 threads on this subject over the years and I don't remember a lot of complaints about lower weight bullets in faster twist barrels. Well there are the people that say they spin bullets so fast they fly apart but I don't take them seriously. I won't until I see that happen myself.

At any rate it wasn't so long ago that people thought a 1:9 twist was fast for a .223. 1:12 was the standard at that time and people said a 1:9 was too fast for light bullets. Now no one thinks that. The rule of thumb used to be that 55 gr. was the lower limit for a 1:9 twist. How many people still think that?

I don't doubt what you say but are you sure there aren't other variables involved? Like maybe the rifle you're using is particular about weights. Most of my centerfire rifles are. My 30.06 in particular likes 165 gr. bullets for accuracy.
 
My apologies Cee Zee. My thinking is taking a turn thanks to this thread. It could very well be just my particular set up. I only have a sample of ONE. I need to find out if other DD 1/7 owners have similar grouping 55 v. 62gr.

As an aside I have been shopping for a lower cost 1/9 plinking barrel/upper to use with 55gr bullets. May now look for a 1/8 as well but will research if people have good groups with 55gr in that particular barrel.........all the while knowing it comes down to the individual chamber/barrel.
 
My stock Colt LE6920 with 1/7 twist is sub MOA with 62 grain green tip (M855/SS109) ammo. The groups open up maybe a half inch or so more with 55 grain M193 ball. I am going to try some 55 grain, and 75 grain reloads next, and my bet is the 75 grain will be superior in accuracy.
 
If your wanting to test accuracy ball ammo sucks, I would scratch military bullets from the list, purchase some varmint bullets and some match bullets...52gr smk or several of the 52 gr bullets from manufactures would be a cheap way to go as well. Try handloading some flat base v-max, blitzking, ballistictip bullets 40-60 gr also some match bullets around 52gr in 3 guns with different twist 1/7 to 1/10 I don't think you will see anything other than bullet preference not weight preference.
 
Another vote for the general quality of .223 ball ammo being the bigger limiter than the rate of twist on the barrel. And it also varies by your particular barrel, there is no guarantee any given new 1-9" twist barrel is going to shoot 55gr FMJ better than a similar 1-7" twist barrel.

I've been feeding my Colt 6920 a steady diet of whatever 55gr FMJ I can buy or put together inexpensively, and let me say, depending on the manufacturer, the consistency of even the component bullets is atrocious. Hornady are pretty danged good, Winchester not quite so much. I just finished loading up 500 of the Winchester 55gr FMJ-BT and it looked like the bullets came out of at least 3 different forming machines. But they shoot well enough to hit a 5-MOA plate at 200 yards, so maybe I'm being too harsh? (When I want to bench the Colt and put holes close together, I reach for 75gr Hornady HPBTs. Haven't picked up any 77gr Sierra or Noslers to try in it yet.)

Bullet quality matters more to me at .223 speeds than specific barrel twists. The stubby little 52gr match bullets shoot pretty well out of 1-7" twist match barrels in my experience. At the same time, it takes at least a 1-8" twist barrel to reliably stabilize the long 77 and 80 grain match bullets. While some 1-9" barrels will shoot 75gr and even some 77gr bullets accurately, it's a trial-and-error thing. A 1-8" or faster is certain to work with those long slugs.
 
purchase some varmint bullets and some match bullets

By far the best ammo for my rifle is Black Hills with Sierra MatchKing Hollow Point Boat Tail bullets. But I've seen some match grade ammo that wouldn't group well at all for me. Of course there is a limit on what ball ammo will do also. It doesn't shoot bad but if you want top accuracy it generally takes a really good bullet especially at longer distances. Out to about 300 yards I get good results with almost everything except Tula. Past that other bullets (other than Sierra MatchKing) don't fly as straight IMO.
 
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