124 gr. vs. 124 gr. +P?
- Thread starter BADUNAME4
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If your guns are not rated for +P, you can potentially damage or destroy them. +P also means more recoil which might mean the rounds might be harder to control, thus hurting quick, accurate follow-up shots. They might also be a little more expensive, depending on brand.
Practice well, practice often, and have the proper hardware, and 124gr +P is fine.
Practice well, practice often, and have the proper hardware, and 124gr +P is fine.
skinewmexico
Member
For the life of me, I can't see why you'd need +P. If you do, it's time to get out a rifle.
Maybe I'm missing something, but isn't more powerful better if you can control it (and of course if it's OK for the gun you're shooting)?
skinewmexico, is there something more here? I'd love to "get out the rifle" if I had a defensive situation on my hands...but if the rifle isn't available, why not +P?
BTW: OP, what kind of ammo are you looking toward? PM me, if you found a good deal on bulk high end 9mm.
skinewmexico, is there something more here? I'd love to "get out the rifle" if I had a defensive situation on my hands...but if the rifle isn't available, why not +P?
BTW: OP, what kind of ammo are you looking toward? PM me, if you found a good deal on bulk high end 9mm.
The Lone Haranguer
Member
Less recoil and better controllability, helping you to get better and faster hits. Although not as much of a factor in the heavier, more hand-filling CZ Compact, it would be in the little Kahr.
I think you have to try both and decide whether more power or more firepower is your personal preference. If you can shoot the +P just as well as the regular pressure ammo with no noticable decrease in accuracy or follow-up for you then by all means go for it.
If it is an issue, but you still feel more confident in higher power per-shot over volume of fire, get the +P. On the other hand if you're more interested in volume of fire over individual power, and +P slows you're effective rate of fire, then its clear that regular pressure is more of your gig.
All comes down to what YOU prefer and what YOU are comfortable with. I recommend sending a box of each down range in slow and fast fire drills to see which one truly is more of your style.
If it is an issue, but you still feel more confident in higher power per-shot over volume of fire, get the +P. On the other hand if you're more interested in volume of fire over individual power, and +P slows you're effective rate of fire, then its clear that regular pressure is more of your gig.
All comes down to what YOU prefer and what YOU are comfortable with. I recommend sending a box of each down range in slow and fast fire drills to see which one truly is more of your style.
skinewmexico
Member
If you start buying into the more power theory, that should naturally lead you to a .40. Then to a 45. It's about shot placement. The +P won't make them more dead. It was developed, I believe, for shooting thru things, like windshields and cars. Not exactly defensive. Can also lead to overpenetration.
jeff-10
Member
How much advantage do you get from the +P in the compacts? I am all for +P ammo, as the ammo companies tend to download ammo anyways, but I am not sure how much velocity increasesd in the short barrels. Might not be worth the cost, flash and recoil.
loop
Member
To me this kind of an old and tired subject, but I'll post anyway. I'll also preface it with saying I no longer own anything in 9mm because it is too anemic for a primary defensive handgun. If I have to shoot a caliber that is not a stopper may as well shoot a .32.
But, you won't see much real advantage in terms of tissue damage or penetration in a +P over a standard 124-grain HP. The base velocity for expansion is 930 fps and any 124 HP you buy will exceed that velocity. There is no such thing as reliable expansion from a 9mm or much of any other pistol caliber unless you go to a revolver magnum round.
In 9mm +p may promise up to 200 fps velocity increases, but won't deliver. Those velocities are delivered from locked breech guns with long barrels. I never found one that would match stated velocities with even a standard 5-inch barrel. If you shot a compact, forget it.
I once clocked all these puppies shooting from a stand through a chornograph into a cement pond with a grate on the bottom. We documented every round. Winchester Silvertips and Remington Golden Sabers would consistently begin to expand at 930 fps. Everything else was higher. Sierra had a bullet, I can't remember which one, but at about 960 it gave superior expansion to anything else we tested. Trouble was at about 1,000 it came apart. Jacket and bullet would be separated. I speculated that might be good because you have two units now doing damage. My partner said it was bad because both lost their energy too fast.
It's all very speculative except in documented real-life situations. Then all you know is what happened that time.
I switched to .45. At least I know it will never be less than 33 percent bigger than 9mm.
But, you won't see much real advantage in terms of tissue damage or penetration in a +P over a standard 124-grain HP. The base velocity for expansion is 930 fps and any 124 HP you buy will exceed that velocity. There is no such thing as reliable expansion from a 9mm or much of any other pistol caliber unless you go to a revolver magnum round.
In 9mm +p may promise up to 200 fps velocity increases, but won't deliver. Those velocities are delivered from locked breech guns with long barrels. I never found one that would match stated velocities with even a standard 5-inch barrel. If you shot a compact, forget it.
I once clocked all these puppies shooting from a stand through a chornograph into a cement pond with a grate on the bottom. We documented every round. Winchester Silvertips and Remington Golden Sabers would consistently begin to expand at 930 fps. Everything else was higher. Sierra had a bullet, I can't remember which one, but at about 960 it gave superior expansion to anything else we tested. Trouble was at about 1,000 it came apart. Jacket and bullet would be separated. I speculated that might be good because you have two units now doing damage. My partner said it was bad because both lost their energy too fast.
It's all very speculative except in documented real-life situations. Then all you know is what happened that time.
I switched to .45. At least I know it will never be less than 33 percent bigger than 9mm.
sparkyguy
member
I've fired 9mm +p through my Glock 17 and didn't notice ANY difference in felt recoil or shot placement follow-up. That's in a polymer framed gun, too.
YMMV. As far as 9mm being "anemic"
, the only thing anemic is the dim-witted view that it is. Was 9mm "anemic" for the Va Tech lunatic who killed 32 ppl with it? Is it "anemic" for the THOUSANDS of police officers who have used them to save their life in countless shootings? These self-proclaimed know-it-alls are so full of themselves and caca
that propose such idiotic statements, they should be heard with a grain of salt knowing their lack of truth. They are the same crowd that profess the 38 special to be too "anemic" as well
. The caliber that was used successfully for 60+yrs by law enforcent/criminal element in their good/bad deeds.
IMO, and many others, the MOST important factor is shot placement, not caliber. The human body is no thicker now then it was 50-60 yrs ago when it was being brought down with a 38spl. A 45 miss is no better then a 9mm miss. 9mm can easily go through any civilian outter garment and 4inches into/through a human heart. End of story.
YMMV. As far as 9mm being "anemic"
, the only thing anemic is the dim-witted view that it is. Was 9mm "anemic" for the Va Tech lunatic who killed 32 ppl with it? Is it "anemic" for the THOUSANDS of police officers who have used them to save their life in countless shootings? These self-proclaimed know-it-alls are so full of themselves and caca that propose such idiotic statements, they should be heard with a grain of salt knowing their lack of truth. They are the same crowd that profess the 38 special to be too "anemic" as well. The caliber that was used successfully for 60+yrs by law enforcent/criminal element in their good/bad deeds.IMO, and many others, the MOST important factor is shot placement, not caliber. The human body is no thicker now then it was 50-60 yrs ago when it was being brought down with a 38spl. A 45 miss is no better then a 9mm miss. 9mm can easily go through any civilian outter garment and 4inches into/through a human heart. End of story.
RNB65
Member
I use +P ammo in my defensive handguns (Kahr P9, S&W mod 60, Glock 17). I can't tell any big diff between the +P and the non+P as far as control and recoil. There is a noticeable diff in noise and muzzle flash.
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Go With +p
Air,Land&Sea. My agency used +P+ for many years with good results. When you go from regular velocity to +P you are getting an extra margin of effectiveness with only a slight gain in recoil. Noise does go up noticably.
I still carry it when off duty in preference to the harder kicking .40 caliber that my ageny issues.
If your guns are rated for +P and most modern ones are, then use it for your defensive or carry ammo PROVIDED YOUR QUALIFICATION SCORES DO NOT DROP! If they do, then stick with regular 9m.m.
If you are worried about wear and it is a real concern with lightweight guns, then practice with WINCHESTER FMJ ammo from WALMART. I pick it up cheap and use if for practice and carry +P for serious use.
There are several good +P. I had been using a stache of +P+ 124 grain HYDRO SHOK which was my old duty load. Now I am using FEDERAL HST +P and WINCHESTER Ranger +p as it is much cheaper while still effective. The HYDRO SHOK was the most reliabe ammo to expand at lower velocities, but offer no advantage at 1200 fps.
The +P 9m.m. loads offer some significant advantages over larger calibers like the .40 S&W and .45ACP. The most obvious is the better selection of firearms that you can choose from, including smaller sized models.
Just as important is the reduced recoil. This can reduce the time between shots and increase your accuracy when time constrained.
I suggest you just try both and decide for yourself. Good luck.
Jim
Air,Land&Sea. My agency used +P+ for many years with good results. When you go from regular velocity to +P you are getting an extra margin of effectiveness with only a slight gain in recoil. Noise does go up noticably.
I still carry it when off duty in preference to the harder kicking .40 caliber that my ageny issues.
If your guns are rated for +P and most modern ones are, then use it for your defensive or carry ammo PROVIDED YOUR QUALIFICATION SCORES DO NOT DROP! If they do, then stick with regular 9m.m.
If you are worried about wear and it is a real concern with lightweight guns, then practice with WINCHESTER FMJ ammo from WALMART. I pick it up cheap and use if for practice and carry +P for serious use.
There are several good +P. I had been using a stache of +P+ 124 grain HYDRO SHOK which was my old duty load. Now I am using FEDERAL HST +P and WINCHESTER Ranger +p as it is much cheaper while still effective. The HYDRO SHOK was the most reliabe ammo to expand at lower velocities, but offer no advantage at 1200 fps.
The +P 9m.m. loads offer some significant advantages over larger calibers like the .40 S&W and .45ACP. The most obvious is the better selection of firearms that you can choose from, including smaller sized models.
Just as important is the reduced recoil. This can reduce the time between shots and increase your accuracy when time constrained.
I suggest you just try both and decide for yourself. Good luck.
Jim
Check the stats for what brand you get. Sometimes the +P only gets you a few FPS at a higher cost and isn't worth it to me. Personally, I carry 124gr HST in my carry gun but I stock up on 100 round boxes of WWB in ball and JHP. Its a cheap way to stock up with good ammo. 1000 rounds of WWB is of more use than 300 rounds of Gold Dots.
And Amen Sparkguy. My defensive guns are almost all 9mms. It is an effective caliber and with my wife's M&P I can easily carry 50+ rounds of ammo. Thats a lot. 9mm ammo is effective, lighter, and easier to come by. If the SHTF my 9mms are the ones I'll grab. The recent military conflicts have made the 9mm (in ball btw) look anemic but there were complaints about the 1911 too. I like my 45s but I love my 9mms.
And Amen Sparkguy. My defensive guns are almost all 9mms. It is an effective caliber and with my wife's M&P I can easily carry 50+ rounds of ammo. Thats a lot. 9mm ammo is effective, lighter, and easier to come by. If the SHTF my 9mms are the ones I'll grab. The recent military conflicts have made the 9mm (in ball btw) look anemic but there were complaints about the 1911 too. I like my 45s but I love my 9mms.
I find it funny that shot placement is always talked about in a SD situation. I believe the vast majority of us if ever faced with life and death, would be not concerned about shot placement. Most of the range rats who hang around here would be lucky to hit anything at all in an SD situation (myself included). It is one thing to place nice little groups at the range, but a whole different deal if attacked and scared S^#*tless.
Get the biggest caliber gun you can control and make that your SD weapon. In fantasy land you are double tapping an attacker in the forehead. Get a .45 or .44 Magnum and if you happen to hit him in the hip or shoulder it is over.
Get the biggest caliber gun you can control and make that your SD weapon. In fantasy land you are double tapping an attacker in the forehead. Get a .45 or .44 Magnum and if you happen to hit him in the hip or shoulder it is over.
Big Boomer
Member
Sparkyguy,
WHOA there buddy, don't have a coronary! We are just talkin about some ammo here that pokes a little hole in ya.
If you like your 9's, great, shoot them. You don't have to defend them for the rest of us. I just prefer that you carry something/anything. Hell, I'd be fine with a 22! I carry one of those too as my "unarmed gun".
It's your money buy what you want.
As for the original OT post,
+p or not to +p depends on bullet design, gun, and shooter. I like big things moving fast. So if you can't get one then get the other but preferably both.
Now that being said, +p will bring more wear and tear to any firearm if you shoot a regular diet of it. I'd plink with regular, train with a bit of +p and carry +p, but I would not buy some of the +p cheap stuff where the bullet is going too fast and blows apart. Jacket separation causes horrible terminal performance. If you can afford it...the Corbon DPX stuff is great. It is VERY pricey, but hey, we are talkin about your life here after all!
Anyhooo...just my $.02 have a great Saturday!
WHOA there buddy, don't have a coronary! We are just talkin about some ammo here that pokes a little hole in ya.
If you like your 9's, great, shoot them. You don't have to defend them for the rest of us. I just prefer that you carry something/anything. Hell, I'd be fine with a 22! I carry one of those too as my "unarmed gun".
It's your money buy what you want.
As for the original OT post,
+p or not to +p depends on bullet design, gun, and shooter. I like big things moving fast. So if you can't get one then get the other but preferably both.
Now that being said, +p will bring more wear and tear to any firearm if you shoot a regular diet of it. I'd plink with regular, train with a bit of +p and carry +p, but I would not buy some of the +p cheap stuff where the bullet is going too fast and blows apart. Jacket separation causes horrible terminal performance. If you can afford it...the Corbon DPX stuff is great. It is VERY pricey, but hey, we are talkin about your life here after all!
Anyhooo...just my $.02 have a great Saturday!
the difference in speed between a regular 9mm and a 9mm +P will be less than 100 f/s. You're not going to notice any difference in felt recoil (IMO) and the effects will only be marginally better. I would get the +P. I personally use 9mm +P 115gr JHP out of a P7 for home defense. I wouldn't use it as a daily range round cause in Canada (where I"m from) +P is significanly more $$ than regular 9mm. I think every little advantage is worth it when poop hits the fan.
sparkyguy
member
No worries. I'm not "having a coronary", just annoyed at ppl trying to come off as experts when they're not. Rest assured, I wasn't defending anything for you. It is obvious many feel they are "under-equipped" in things other then guns, and feel the need to have a large caliber gun to somehow make up for their "short-comings", big boomer. I have a .22, a 9mm, also some 38 specials, 357 mag, along with a 45 acp and 44 mag, so I have quite a few to choose from and wouldn't feel under-armed(?) with any of them.
strangelittleman
Member
Check out the Blackhills 9mm EXP 115gr JHP. I think you just might change your mind on the choice of ammo....The EXP is greta ammo, Oh by the way, if 124gr is what you've got your mind set on, then check out the new 124gr EXP load that Blackhills have just put out!!
DENALI
member
Uhh OP both of the pistols you've got will handle the high pressure stuff just fine, particularly the CZ. Keep in mind when hearing from all the experts that 9mm is to sissy, or if you need +p you really need a rifle, or whatever, 9mm +P or +P+ translates to about a 10-13% increase in muzzle velocity from about a 4-inch barrel and an additional 25%+ increase in muzzle energy. Thats nothing to sneeze at, and the idea behind it is to increase penetration and expansion while slimming down the chances of a through and through shoot. I've been shooting a long time, and high pressure 9mm is as good as most anything in .40 and damn close to it in .45. If I was you I'd lay away as much high pressure stuff as you can get your hands on. Thats almost all I shoot in my 9mm Glocks and my CZ-75PO1, and I don't consider myself anybody's fool.
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