12ga & 9mm - vague questions from a noob

[danez71]

Hello all

I have open ended questions with little details and I'd appreciate any help/input you can share.


I'm not expecting specific answers... just info to steer me.


So lets start the open ended vague questions

12ga - Main purpose is to make very wimpy loads that may be non-existent or very hard to find (fun/practice) and be more self sufficient. I know I wont be saving money on a per round cost.

Is it possible to make a 12 ga load with the recoil of, say, a 410? Are loads for 12ga that low even reference in books?
Main purpose for this would be as light of recoil as possible to shoot more just for fun which will lead to more practice etc.



Next vague question below...

A few people in the shot gun section have mentioned the MecJr. But I'm not stuck on any brand etc.

Looking at Mec's website I can get a MecJr for under $250 that comes with a few bushings and 1 charge bar. My limited knowledge tells me Id need another charge bar to get under the 1 1/8 load and I guess some more bushings in order to make those wimpy loads I mentioned below.
https://www.mecshootingsports.com/p-382-600-jr-mark-v.aspx

Can I get all of the equipment I need (basic setup) for say $300ish? (new equipment of the basic set up and the other bushes/charge bar needed to make the wimpy loads)






Next

9mm

It seems that metallic reloading is 10x the options of shotgun reloading so I wont mention any brand at all.
Kind of the same basic $$$ question. Not looking to start a war over which brand.

How much $$ would it take to get a basic set up going?

Including a scale and supporting equipment; new equipment. I don't know if I "need" tumblers, and trimmers, and...?

The idea behind it is to take advantage of the growing # of empty shell I have accumulating... and to be more self sufficient. As a bonus, I shoot enough 9mm that I'll recoup the cost before I retire (or die )



I'm not looking for info as to the absolute cheapest way to get into reloading.

More like, How much should I expect to spend to for a basic manual system with the added 'small' stuff?


Once I'm ready, I'd shop for price etc.


I know.... they are very open ended questions with out much detail. But I'm hoping you guys can give me a little input/guidance.



One day, hopefully, I'll be in here asking questions for my 1st reloading session


Thanks for any help.

 

[brewer12345]

I tackled shotshell reloading first, but I am in the midst of figuring out metallic. You can probably get close to what you need with an MEC setup for 12 gauge for $300. Definitely if you buy a used machine. A powder scale is something I would regard as a must have for any reloading of any kind, so plan to buy one. They range in price and function considerably. You can use the scale for both shotshell and metallic, so there is some savings there, but it is a safety issue if you don't have one.

I chose to go with a Lee Load All for my 20 gauge reloading, a choice that is considerably looked down upon by many reloaders. It was really, really cheap, works just fine, and I figure I will use it until it disintegrates. On my second year of reloading with it and I have probably loaded 2000 shells on it.

You can make light loads for 12 gauge. Many high volume trap shooters do 7/8 oz. loads with no problems at all. I think you can go with even lighter loads if you wish.

I a still learning metallic, so I will let someone else answer that part.

 

[splattergun]

When loading shotgun shells you must follow the recipes exactly, including primer type, powder, wad and shell. Yes, there are low power loads available, but you will not be trying to load lower, if you value your fingers and good looks. If you manage to find free or low cost lead and shells, buy powder and primers in bulk, it is possible to load shotgun for less than buying Wally World Specials.

For metallic loading you NEED;
Loading manuals
A press
Dies
Powder scale
Calipers
Bullet puller (you WILL make mistakes that need to be pulled)
For rifle shells you need a trimmer.
You need safety glasses.
And, of course, you need powder, primers and bullets.

A loading tray is not mandatory, but is more important than 'nice addition'. It can be home made.

You do not NEED a tumbler. It's a nice addition.
You do not need a trimmer for most pistol shells.

You can get rigged for basic metallic loading with a $150, give or take.

Most of all, you do NEED to read loading manuals. THey will answer both your vague and specific questions.

 

[danez71]

Thanks to both !

Looking at both answers, it seems that maybe it would be more costly to get going with shotgun reloading than metallic.... or maybe not?


(Assuming new equipment just to keep things comparable...)

Equipment wise - Is a shotgun reloading set up generally more expensive than a metallic reloading set up?

I'm not set on the Mec Jr by any means.... I barely know what I'm talking about LOL


Should I budget in my head $350ish for shot gun and $200ish for metallic and maybe another $100-150 for a reloading manual and ticky tack stuff like a few trays, a bullet puller etc?

 

[brewer12345]

Put it this way:

- You need a powder scale, safety glasses and reloading manuals no matter what you do.
- You need components. Powder can be used for both 9MM and shotgun if you pick the right one. Unique and Universal are examples of dual use powders. Primers, wads, shot and bullets will be separate.
- You can spend $50 on a Lee shotshell press if you want to start with small table stakes. Or you can spend many multiples of that on the latest and greatest. Add a bag of shot, a brick of primers, a bag of wads and a pound of powder and you are into it for $175 or less if you buy a Lee Load All.
- If you want to do basic pistol reloading for the very least amount of money, you can also buy a Lee Loader set for under $30. Add a rubber mallet and you can bang out rounds in a pinch. I would suggest a press for any kind of volume, but it is possible to do this for very little money.

 

[SwaneeSR]

Well I am not sure I would try to learn shotshell and pistol in the same month. Pick one and pursue it.

I own the following presses
MECjr, 12g from my teenage years
MEC9000g, 12g progressive

Dillon 550b for pistol
Lee Classic Turret for rifle and small volumn pistol
RCBS Rockchucker singlestage for rifle.

I would start out with a Lee Classic Turret and practice 9mm loading. Do not purchase a kit, but the minimum gear mentioned above. Yes you need a scale and a check weight.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[TimSr]

The key to shotgun reloading is that your powder charge, wad, and shot have to end up filling the casing EXACTLY. Its about volume. Over or under will not crimp properly. for this reason, you can't just reduce a powder charge to load down. Your lowest loads that come out right with the combination are going to be typical target loads, not .410-like. Obviously them, your lowest recoil loads will have light shot loads, voluminous wads made for light shot loads, and the more voluminous powders. The most expensive component is the shot, and there is no real savings in handloading shotshells (over cheap, retail, target loads) unless you are doing magnum, buck, or other specialty loads. The Lee Load-All is cheaply made but works well, and has all bushings included, and is great way to get started and to help you decide if you want to get more serious later. It's complete minus reloading components. Even comes with some load data.

If 9mm is the only metallic cartridge you are currently looking at, I'd wait until you have a bigger list. Its the cheapest, and easiest ammo to find out there, with more selection on the shelf than any other. You can get started cheap enough, probably under $200, and after you establish a routine, and sourcing for components, the equipment should pay itself after 50-100 boxes of ammo are loaded, if you place no value on your time. It's much cheaper to add a set of 9mm dies when you are loading for something else more worthwhile.

 

[Blue68f100]

You use to be able to pick up a Used Mec 600Jr for around $75. Keep you eyes open they are out there. In most cases garage sales and estates sales is where you will find these cheap. You may even get supplies with it. Then if your not shooing very may the Lee Wack A Mole will get you by. What I started one 50 yrs ago before getting the Mec.

As far as metallic hand loading, 9mm is fairly simple. The low cost Lee units will get you by if your not needing volume. It's all the little things and supplies that add up.

 

[danez71]

Thanks guys.

Ive done some reading and can boil this down to more direct questions regarding the 12ga.

• Winchester makes a 'Low recoil/Low noise', 12ga, 1oz load @ 980 ft/sec (They used to make a 12ga 'Featherlite' load that supposedly was 15/16oz @ 980 ft/sec)
  
  
• Winchester also makes a low recoil/low noise 20ga, 7/8oz load @ 980 ft/sec

All of the above is using #8 shot


My 3 new questions

• Is there load data for 12ga, 7/8 oz, @ 980 ft/sec that would better mimic a light 20ga load? (that I'll be shooting from my heavier 12ga)
  
  
• Is there any 12 ga loads lighter than that?
  
  
• Just for giggles, is there any load data for 12ga in the 7/8oz - 1oz that @ 980 ft/sec but using larger shot size like #6, #4 or even #4 buck for example ?

I was thinking about getting a 410. Besides recoil (me and skinny nephews), there are a lot of reasons for me to stick with 12ga and get into reloading instead.


I found this load data on shotgunworld.

http://shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=29229

Hogdon powder web site (under Winchester powder) lists the following recipe for the Winchester Feather Lite Low Noise Low Recoil Target Load. These are 26 gram (401 grains) of #8 shot at the following velocities:

12 gr. WAA Lite Win 209 Primer WAA 12SL (grey) 980 ft/s 5600 psi
13 gr. WAA Lite Win 209 Primer WAA 12SL (grey) 1035 ft/s 6800 psi
13.8 gr. WAA Lite Win 209 Primer WAA 12 SL (grey) 1090 ft/s 7600 psi
14.8 gr. WAA Lite Win209 Primer WAA 12 SL (grey) 1145 ft/s 8800 psi

 

[f451]

I have a MEC 650 and a Sizemaster, I like the Sizemaster as it re-sizes the brass on my hull even though I never have had any problems with the 650. 0 is 12 gauge and the Sizemaster is a 20.
I use a Rockchucker for my pistol and rifle loads and I have recently tried a Lee hand press and have had good luck with it on my .45 reloads. Worked OK on my rifle loads for hunting but I would stay with the Rockchucker for precision.

 

[Average Joe]

To get into shot shell reloading with minimal expense, get a Lee Load All, they sell for around $50, and produce good quality shells.

 

[greyling22]

I don't load for shotshell, but you sure enough can go WAY under regular found at walmart loads. The cowboy action guys do it all the time. I've seen guys use any number of things as filler in the case. That said, I don't recommend it to anyone new to reloading or who does not know what the are doing. And those light loads will not cycle a semi auto.

For 9mm, it is hard to beat the value offered by the Lee turret press classic. A lot of people recommend starting g on a single stage press, but for me, I don't I am more prone to mistakes like double charging, missed charges, knocking g over the bullet tray etc on a single. I like the auto index feature and making 1 complete round at a time. But, to each their own.

 

[cfullgraf]

As said, the weight of the shot charge has a big effect on the recoil.

I'd suggest you stick with 1150 to 1250 fps loads or so if you are planning to shoot clay targets much. If you get too far off those velocities, you will have to learn different leads if you shoot factory shells at a later date.

Here are some 3/4 oz. 12 gauge loads.

http://www.hodgdon.com/PDF/ReducedRecoilShotshellLoads.pdf

The fixed cavity MEC charge bars are not very expensive and you would need one for each shot charge weight you plan to load.

You will need a bunch of powder bushings. Once you pick a recipe, I'd get, at least, the bushing recommended by the powder conversion charts and the ones on each side. In weighing the powder charges thrown, I found the actual charge thrown did not match the charts.

There are charge bars with adjustable cavities for the MEC loaders called "Universal Charge bars. I use one when loading .410 only because I could not get the shot charge or powder charge weights I wanted with the MEC charge bars.

I prefer the operation of the MEC charge bars though and use them in my 12, 20 and 28 gauge loaders.

But in the long run, the Universal Charge bar can be less expensive.

If you are planning to load and shoot more than a couple boxes of shot shells a year, I would not consider anything less than a MEC 600 jr. They are well built and durable. You can easily re-coup much of your investment if you decide to sell it, especially if you purchased a used one.

 

[TimSr]

Just for giggles, is there any load data for 12ga in the 7/8oz - 1oz that @ 980 ft/sec but using larger shot size like #6, #4 or even #4 buck for example ?

7/8oz of #8 is the same weight as 7/8oz of #4, so they both use the same load data.

 

[X-Ring]

Just for giggles, is there any load data for 12ga in the 7/8oz - 1oz that @ 980 ft/sec but using larger shot size like #6, #4 or even #4 buck for example ?

You can use any size shot with any load as long as the weight is the same. However, it is best to use loads developed for buck shot with buck shot.

 

[mdi]

Before you buy anything I'd suggest reading The ABCs of Reloading. You mention reading already, but The ABCs will show not only how to reload but what equipment is needed for your reloading needs. You can get started in 9mm reloading for less than $50 in equipment up to several thousand dollars for a prime set-up. Most would recommend a single stage press with dies (three die set w/carbide sizer), a scale, dial calipers (for OAL measurements), perhaps some powder scoops,and at least a couple manuals for a start. Basic hand tools may be needed, but with this basic set you can load safe ammo. Others will recommend a turret press, which if used by hand indexing is OK, but learning proper die adjustment, as switching dies on a single stage is essential, rather than set-it-and-forget-it. Nothing says you have to keep using your first set, and you should expand your tool inventory as experience is gained. Some may even suggest a progressive, but you need to learn to reload rather than how to operate a machine that reloads. (FWIW; I learned to reload with the most basic equipment; a Lee Loader. I used a Lee Loader to reload for nearly two years and learned not only the "How to", but also the "Whys".).

Some things aren't needed, but some suggest them. A tumbler in not necessary. Just wipe your brass with a cloth as you inspect it (you need to inspect brass before it's reloaded, so just wipe it as you're looking at it). I did this for 12 years of reloading before I got a tumbler, no scratched dies, and I could see any case defects.

In 30+ years of reloading I can't remember ever trimming a hand gun case. So trimming tools, gauges, etc. are not necessary. For my "accuracy loads" for my .308 bolt gun I clean and deburr the primer pockets, not exactly needed, just makes me feel good/think it works! I do not clean primer pockets on any handgun brass and only trim primer pockets when I use military brass.

Go slow, double check everything, and most important, have fun...

 

[quaid]

You have chosen the two cartridges with the lowest margin of savings. Unless you stubbornly chase expensive/boutique low recoil loads or something else not easily commercially purchased I think you won't find the effort worthwhile.

I use a Lee classic cast turret press for my pistol reloads and I am frustrated by the slow pace it provides of 100-150/hour.

Once you start reloading inevitably you will be purchasing bulk buys of components in catalogs/online. It's only fair then to compare the prices of catalog/online loaded rounds. Consider next companies with brass exchange programs too... My advice would be different for cartridges with bigger savings, eg, 45 auto/10mm/380auto/anything rimmed. Volume bulk and a conscious disregard for your time are needed for 9mm savings.

...yeah... I'm self employed. But my metallic reloads are consistent to the point they could only be compared to and replaced by high dollar match quality stuff. And I'm stubborn.

 

[danez71]

You have chosen the two cartridges with the lowest margin of savings. Unless you stubbornly chase expensive/boutique low recoil loads or something else not easily commercially purchased I think you won't find the effort worthwhile.

Yes, I recognize that. Cost savings has little, to no, influence in this endeavor.

I float between CA and AZ but my official residence is CA for the next few years. CA may pass legislation requiring permit and background check for ammo. I'm not going to play that game. There's other ways around it, especially since I'm back and forth between CAand AZ, but maybe it's just time to act on an interest I've had for long time.

That's 'a' primary reason that applies to 12ga and is thee primary reason for 9mm

12ga - I bought my 1st pump shotgun a couple years ago. Never had much interest until recently. Theres only so much running around the house working the pump a guy can do... with a wife.

Doubling my fun and live round count (outside the home ! ) leads to more practice along with avoiding potential restrictions = Winning! in my book.


Thanks for the other info too.

 

[Mauser69]

You will learn this from any decent shotshell reloading manual, but I do not think anybody has touched on it yet, so I wanted to let you know right up front - the specific brand and model of shell CASE (along with the specific wad) is critical in shotshell loading, were it is almost meaningless in metallic reloading. For that reason, it is much more difficult to change load recipes for a shotgun than it is for rifle or handgun.

The principles of pressure and therefore safety are pretty much the same - the amount and type of powder behind a specific weight of projectile equate to the pressure generated - too much and you go boom. But with a shotshell, you cannot adjust bullet seating depth or expect uniform case volumes. The shape of the base wad in the shell varies tremendously from one type of shell to another, and the wads vary tremendously also. It takes the EXACT combination of shell case, powder type and charge, SPECIFIC wad, and shot weight to properly fill the volume so that the case will both crimp properly and the resulting pressure be at a safe level.

If you buy two different brands/types of 12 gauge factory loads and save the shells, you most probably will NOT be able to reload them both with the same powder charge and/or wads. In metallic reloading, some people sort cases by headstamp simply for best uniformity, but it is not needed. In shotshell reloading, you sort cases by brand AND specific type of construction because you have no choice.

 

[danez71]

^^^^^

I recently learned that but its worth repeating.


And, for me, that's really important because I plan to reload empties, not buy empty hulls.


As such, I'm probably going to limit my self to 2 or 3 with a normal 6pt crimp so that I can build up a supply worth reloading.


Currently, the most consistent hull I have is from cheap Estate 00buck from Midway with a rolled crimp and brass base. I didn't know they rolled crimped before I bought them and it probably wouldn't have made a difference if I had. I started not throwing them away just in case I started reloading.

As I understand it, they are able to be reloaded, but I may toss them in favor of 6pt crimp.

 

[Rule3]

I can only address the metallic reloading (9mm etc) as I do not reload shotgun.

IMHO the best "deal" going for a beginner is the RCBS Kit. It has everything you need and there is no "junk" all of the equipment is good, The press will last several lifetimes, the scale (most important piece of reloading equipment is good also. Manual, priming tool etc.

You will need some calipers and dies. Of course you need powder and primers,

NO you do not need a progressive press to start of with. Learn to load on a single stage especially if only loading one caliber.

http://www.brownells.com/reloading/...r-supreme-master-reloading-kit-prod54059.aspx

You can search for prices but Brownells is great, one flat rate to ship and FOREVER guarantee.

Here is a good thread to read.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=238214

 

[brewer12345]

danez, I think you will find that lightweight 410s kick pretty badly. Better to try a light load in a heavy 12 gauge. I would stick with a 7/8 oz. load to start with and keep the velocity to 1200 FPS or less. After you master the basics, then you can mess around with lighter loads. I started out with simple trap loads and then worked on stuff like high velocity (1400+ FPS) hunting loads and spreader loads for an old gun with an extremely tight fixed choke.

Acquiring a supply of components is a great way to hedge ammo supply issues and state based restrictions. I also find it to be a nice extension of the hobby.