16 Gauge

[Brian Williams]

Why are a lot of Ithaca 37 that I pick up on used racks are 16 gauge. I also have seen a few SxS also. What was it that a 16 gauge had that most of us are missing. I know about the 28 gauge and what it is but 16 gauge???

 

[sm]

Brian,

http://www.16ga.com/

PM Sent.

 

[Shawnee]

Hi Brian...

Ok, I'll be glad to go there. But my disclaimer is that this is opinion (based on observation or digestion of what the old time gun scribes talked about).

The 16ga was pretty much the perfect shotgun for many, many shooters circa pre-WWII. A few significant and widespread things happened postWWII that hastened the 16's downward slide but - to answer your question first -

Ithaca was the last of the major manufacturers to drop the 16 from their primary gun (the 37). In fact, they produced goodly numbers of them into the 70s whereas the other big makers had drastically reduced their 16 production by about 64 and had pretty much dropped the 16 from their primary models by the late 60s. That's why you can still see so many of the venerable Ithaca 37 in 16 ga today.

Pivotal events that made the 16 "odd man out" include the ammo makers wanting to eliminate that inventory unit because its' sales was not supported by any of the clay target games - meaning way low volume compared to the other gauges. Another factor - prior to WWII the American homeboy who hunted with a scattergun was usually after grouse, quail, rabbits and squirrel on the home place and the 16 was/is THE gauge for that stuff. But when GI Joe got home with his rifle and money flowed like spilled shot, he got in the family sedan and headed for the deer woods or the pheasant fields. In the case of the latter, the ammo makers quickly announced you needed a 12 ga (Remember, Marketing Depts are not required to speak, or even know, the Truth).
On in the 60s the concept of the Magnums and Baby Magnums and that whole schmaltz erupted from the Marketing Dept - in both shotguns and rifles and pistols. "Magnum" meant sales and magnum song was a din so loud you couldn't hear yourself think. The real hoot in all of that was the makers trying to convince the Public of the wonders of a 20ga Magnum which tried (but didn't succeed) to be a 16ga.
But - that's how things work sometimes. We discard something good, replace it with something not as good, and call it Progress.
I have a great 16, one of the very first Bill Hanus Birdguns (made by Ugartecha and bought about 1988 aprox.) . For anyone who wants some authoritative discussion of the 16, here is Bill's website:

http://www.billhanusbirdguns.com/archive.html

Enjoy !

 

[John Peddie]

Amen!

I shoot a 20 ga BPS on upland birds, but last year-and with some help from this site-figured out that the 20 ga 3" mag was a waste of time and money.

The 2 3/4 inch #6's do it fine if I do my part.

Now, if Browning would only make a Micro BPS in 16 ga, I'd be there!

After I bought my new Ithaca 37 in 16 ga. of course.

Our parents and grandparents didn't have what "Dr. Dave" calls "Maggie Numbs".

Didn't need 'em.

Best I can tell, birds today are no bigger than they were 25 or 50 years ago-so maybe our forefathers knew more than we "think" we do.

Or maybe, they were better shots and / or didn't skybust.

I'm firmly convinced that the average hunter is both over gunned and over choked, though we seem to be gradually moving to a better place with a move back to smaller gauges and more open chokes.

I also recognize that hunting conditions vary. One of the many things I've learned here.

My waterfowl are within a GPS-measured 30 yds., but that's not a SD rooster busting out at 40 yds late in the season.

Use what you need, but no more than that.

 

[Dave McCracken]

Ye 16 guage is perfect for throwing an oz of shot at something. Most 16s pattern an oz nicely. So, shooters of old oft had a 16 for the uplands that weighed about 6 lbs, easy toting, and if they did waterfowl an 8,10 or heavy 12 also.

A 16 by a name brand maker weighs close to 6 lbs, which is where the old Rule Of 96 says a shotgun shooting an oz of shot should be.

Even today, a 16 can be a very nice addition to the battery.

For a long time, 16s could be purchased for much less than similar 12s and 20s, but people finally figured out why folks like writer Steven Smith were sneaking around buying up old 16 gauge Parkers, Ithacas, Foxes and Elsies. Now most 16s cost more than similar 12s and 20s.

I do think shooting a 16 these days means reloading. Ammo is limited in availability.

 

[PJR]

Ah the 16 gauge, what memories! A young boy standing in a gravel pit in the 60's who tentatively pulls the trigger on his first shotgun round. It was a 16 gauge.....

And it was 40 years before I fired another 16 gauge shell. I have no problem with the 16 gauge and in fact when I ordered a custom 12 gauge sxs I asked that it be made a 16 gauge frame. Best of both worlds.

There is nothing special about the 16 gauge and its popularity isn't widespread. That's why ammo can be hard to come by and because the 16 gauge isn't a target load, reloaders and components are extremely scarce.

There remains however a core of devotees who are convinced the 16 gauge is magical. For them even the mildest slight against their darling gauge is greeted with more ferocity than an insult to their wife or hunting dog. These are the folks responsible for the rise in the price of older 16 gauges sxs meanwhile pumps and o/us in the gauge tend to languish on the shelves.

 

[dfaugh]

IMHO, what made most of the 16s nice was that they were built on a lighter frame (like a 20), but had almost-12 gauge performance. They made very nice field guns. But, they kina "fell through the crack" for the same reason. They weren't alot better on game than a 20, and didn't quite have the punch of the 12. Nonetheless, I would never histate to own one, for hunting small gam and birds.

 

[ArmedBear]

The modern Wingmaster Light Contour 12 weighs 7 lb. with a 28" barrel, 6 3/4 lb. with a 26.

Pretty much kills the advantage of shooting an oddball shell that either costs more at the store, or requires a special reloader setup in addition to 12 and 20.

Then, the 3" 20 Gauge came out, too. If 16 is light and quick, 20 is lighter and quicker. With a 3" shell, it can pack a punch. I know 16 Gauge patterns are better than 3" 20G, but there's a limit to the average shotgunner's level of perfectionism, even if it may seem there isn't.

I came this close to buying an old Ithaca Western Arms Long Range Gun in 16. Those old doubles, even the cheaper ones like that one, are really nice in 16! But metallurgy has improved.

None of that means the 16 Gauge is a bad round, just that it's not where people vote with their dollars most often.

 

[ojdidit]

I was recently given a Rem 16 gauge auto for FREE from a family member, so the extra trouble and expense of finding shells is well worth it for me. However, I'm not sure I would fool with it if I were going to purchase another shotgun. With that said, I am VERY pleased with the performance of the 16 gauge at the trap field (accurate, plenty of pellets, fairly mild recoil).

 

[Gordon]

My fancy high grade gun is a little French Darne 16 gauge . It weighs 6 pounds 2 oz. and has an English splinter and straight grip with figured French Walnut. The coined reciever has moderate engraving but no inlays. I got a smoking deal on it quite a few years ago at 1/4 it's value. Unfortunately for you imagination impared out there it is locked away in my long term safes at another location. Heres a link to what it looks like though:

http://gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=58840731


My gun is made in the 60's and is much more modern and svelte, but is similar in configuration and you can see the unique action!

 

[Shawnee]

Hi Gordon...

I've seen exactly two Darne scatterguns in my entire life and fell in love both times! And neither of them was even a 16 !! They are Major Thumbs Up sticks !! Where did you say you keep yours, and is that a titanium lock on the vault?

 

[Gordon]

No , it is worth about $4500 and I paid $1500 15 years ago! Here is a VERY similar one, mine has more elaborate engraving and a straight grip with more figure.


http://www.gunsamerica.com/guns/976641855.htm


Mine is a P 17 grade. Here is a 28 gauge version , which somebody thinks is worth $2000 more than my 16 ga.

http://www.gunsamerica.com/guns/976651486.htm

 

[Shawnee]

Geez. I think I'm gonna cry. :banghead:

 

[gezzer]

Real good 16 gauge weigh like a 20 and hit like a 12.

The USA got mezmorized by larger magnum payloads and speed even though 98 out of 100 hunters never had a need for them.

 

[mswestfall]

Shawnee. Your posting up top is well said.

I think you hit the nail on the head.

 

[Dave McCracken]

Darnes are darn good shotguns,heh,heh....

Burton Spiller used a 16 gauge Parker for his grouse jaunts so long and hard the checkering disappeared.

Havilah Babcock loved his 16s.So did Elmer Keith.

Pretty gun, Shawnee. I'll wager it shoots as good as it looks.

 

[Brandon Lutz]

I have two Winchester Model 12 16 gauge shotguns that were handed down to me. I love them both. One was my grandfathers that he gave to my father. It was handed down to me years ago and has served me well as an awesome rabbit gun.

My other 16 Gauge Model 12 I recently acquired last year after my great aunt died and was willed to me. Unfortunately for me and the gun, realtives on her side of the family that didnt like me after I turned them in on some elderly abuse problems decided to sabotage the gun before I was able to get it.

However, I am fortunate that all they messed up was the ejector with spring so it's and easy fix. However there are some considerable scratches in the receiver from their awesome screwdriver shennenigans.

I love my 16 ga Model 12's though. One of the best shotguns made IMHO.

 

[ugaarguy]

Source for Guns and Shells

I was checking shot shell prices at the gunstore back home (GA) where I used to work, just to see what they were running now. Lo and behold Remington is now making the 1100 Classic and 870 Wingmaster in 16ga, and they have them. They've also got shells at decent prices comparing what they list the 12 and 20 ga. for. Here's a link in case anyone's interested.

http://www.franklinsofathens.com/GONad.html

 

[9mmMike]

We have a 16 ga. WM here at casa del 9mm. It is built on a 12 gauge frame and is quite heavy. Not so good for toting about but a nice gun for Mrs. 9mmMike to shoot. Neat gun but I really like my 12 gauge guns.

 

[MCgunner]

I grew up hunting waterfowl with an Ithaca 16 and an old single shot in 16. Both were my uncle's and he gave me the single shot. I killed my first geese with that old single shot. It has a spot in my safe and my heart, though I haven't shot it in years. I guess memories are what make an old man happy.

I'd love to have a nice double in 16. I always preferred the 16 gauge. The 12 has taken over my hunting. The cheap, available ammo and necessity for non-toxic for much of my hunting has made that a necessity. And, of course, geese fall better to the 3" 12 loaded with Federal Tungsten-Iron. At least I have that old single shot to play with. I took it out the other day and oiled it. I reckon I should take it to the range and fire a few rounds through it for old times.

 

[Shawnee]

Hi Y'All...

It's true - some new loadings are being done for the 16, including steel shot, and I sure hope that trend continues and broadens! Gonna be a while before you find 'em very conveniently though.
I happen to reload for my clay target loads but wads and good cases have been scarce for a long time. Some of the Winchester "promo" loads had reloadable cases. My hunting loads have come mostly from cruising gun shows and buying old boxes -sometimes for $4 or $5 per box!

 

[PJR]

Lo and behold Remington is now making the 1100 Classic and 870 Wingmaster in 16ga,

The two Remingtons are built on 12 gauge frames. While a heavier frame in a lighter gauge makes some sense for targets (e.g. 28 gauge on a 20 gauge frame) it makes no sense on a hunting gun. The Remington 16 gauges among various others result in the weight of a 12 with the limitations of the 16 gauge ammo.

 

[Navy joe]

I have joined the sickness, I picked up an 1897 in 16 at an auction yesterday. Since the SN puts it being made in 1900, the first year of the 16(didn't know that when I bought it) I guess I ought to get a factory letter. Fired a box of shells through it just because, what a joy to handle if you are used to long mag tube short barrelled 870s like I am. Never shot at a bird in my life, this may change.

 

[Gaucho Gringo]

I have had my 16 guage since I was about 15. My dad gave it to me. I enjoyed shooting it and used it for bird hunting and one time bear hunting with slugs. Almost 38 years later I still have 5 or 6 slugs left from that hunt. It is not a light shotgun, my 12 guage H&R Topper is lighter. As ammo for 16 guage became harder to find and more expensive, I bought my 12 guage 35 years ago that gets all of the shotgun shooting that I do now. The firing pin on the 16 guage broke about 30 years ago and I have had it on my list of things to get fixed since then. At the time it broke, I figured the cost of having it fixed was more than the gun was worth or the cost of a replacement shotgun(new H&R shotguns were $49.00 on sale and used 16 guage shotguns were selling for next to nothing at the time).