180 grain 357 and short barrel

[lobo9er]

All right I had a thought. !80 grain out of a 3inch sp101 wont use all of its powder so I've been told. so, will this generate a "45 acp effect" heavier bullet (for a 357) moving slower (for a 357) leaving more kinetic energy with the target, instead of wasting energy passing through a target? not sure if that made sense. Fired some 180 grain today which lead me to this, and was awesome. If I win the lotto or become a reloader I would pllnk with 180 grainers all day instead of 38's.

 

[DPris]

I don't think it makes much sense.
Denis

 

[DWFan]

A 125gr bullet at 1150 fps generates 367 ft/lb of muzzle energy.
A 180gr bullet at 950 fps generates 361 ft/lb of muzzle energy.
The 125gr load will have a "sharper" recoil due to the additional powder and quicker bullet acceleration. The 180gr however can retain its velocity for a longer distance.

 

[lobo9er]

Member




Posts: 505 A 125gr bullet at 1150 fps generates 367 ft/lb of muzzle energy.
A 180gr bullet at 950 fps generates 361 ft/lb of muzzle energy.

but those #'s would have been out of a 6 inch test barrel right? so the 180 grainer would be moving alot slower out of a 3 inch barrel. someone told me that a 357 out of a short barrel doesnt use alot of its powder so the bullet moves closer to 38's speed. so i'm thinking 180 grain or even 200 grain out of a short barrel would be moving slower therefore giving less chance of penciling through a target. (Or not.) i was just thinking the 45 acp claim to fame is that it is a large bullet moving slow (in the bullet world) so that it wont pass through a target leaving a target with all of its kinetic energy right? or I'm off my rocker.

 

[zxcvbob]

If anything, you've got it backwards. The heavier bullet will have more momentum. So it will penetrate a lot deeper, and in fact still retain a lot of its initial energy when it punches thru the other side.

 

[DC Plumber]

Hmmm, I'd say, if you are accurate with it and the blast or lack there of makes you feel that it is a good option, then carry it. The only flaw I see is if it is a hard cast bullet, then yaa, it might just make a nice .357 hole through your target, which might make it bleed out, but not make for an immmediate stop to the threat. Maybe Winchester 180 ammo loaded with the 180 partition might work well. Given that the media is reporting that a gajillion people are overweight, using a heavy slow bullet might be the way to go.

I'm not saying this is the case, but it seems like "the magic bullet" is less important than the fact that you actually carry your gun and are able to hit what you want with it. I know we've all heard this numerous times, but I think it's worth repeating.

 

[ATLDave]

It's counter-intuitive, but my understanding is that a heavier bullet for a given caliber will have more penetration, while the lighter/faster bullet will have more rapid/reliable expansion. Thus, a 180 is more likely to have the momentum to continue through the target. A 125 is more likely to have the energy to violently expand the projectile and have a chance at a TWC/BPW/"shock" effect beyond mere hole-punching. Different people have different views about the likelihood/reliability of the latter, so some want penetration uber alles. That's one reason why different, rational people will choose different bullet weights.

As I understand it, there is also an additional factor with short-barrelled guns. The bullet simply doesn't have as much time in the barrel, so the time that the energy of the gunpowder combustion can exert force on the base of the bullet is reduced. (That's why longer barrels generally mean higher projectile velocities.) A heavier bullet, by virtue of being slower, gives the gunpowder more time to act on it as it travels. Thus, a heavier bullet can end up with more momentum than a lighter bullet with the same gunpowder behind it. Then there's the whole science of powder selection, which I know nothing about...

 

[lobo9er]

Am I wrong with my idea of how a 45 acp works? I'm still learning so gotta ask stupid questions.

 

[ATLDave]

There is nothing magical about a .45. It "works" the same as any other bullet.

Bear in mind, though, that it is heavier-for-caliber that penetrates better. That's because, all else being equal, a wider bullet will penetrate less. (Think about it. Imagine a nail and a coin of equal weight and hardness. Which will penetrate better - the nail end-on or the coin face-on?) This is all quantified in things like sectional density and, to some degree, ballistic coefficient. But the concept is straightforward.

A 185 .45 is relatively light for the caliber. So it will have a greater tendency to stay in the target, expand violently, and stretch tissue (perhaps to the point of tearing). A 230 .45 is relatively heavy for the caliber, so it will move slower in the air, but with a greater tendency to keep going within the target medium.

There is nothing you can do to make a .357 bullet terminally perform exactly like a .45 performs. That doesn't mean they can't have the same effectiveness, just that they'll do it differently. If you make a .357 heavier to match .45 weight, you will increase sectional density and make it more penetrative. If you keep the weight the same and increase caliber, you will make it less penetrative. Make sense?

 

[MCgunner]

180 XTP out of my 2.25" SP101 gave me 1300 fps/662 ft lbs. The heavier the bullet, the slower it accelerates, and the more of the peak pressure it catches. That load is 13.8 grains AA#9 under a Hornady XTP/JHP 180 grain. This load only clocks 1400 fps/785 ft lbs from my 6.5" Blackhawk. I hunt deer and hog with it and it's deadly way past 50 yards. It groups 4" at 100 yards from the bench. I will not hunt those animals with my .45ACP, not enough umph.

Look at Buffalo Bore if you want similar performance from a short barrel in a heavy load and you don't handload.

 

[lobo9er]

Alright I guess I was mixed up. I thought the heavierand slower the more of a chance a bullet has a chance to stay with a target and not pass through. but.. it makes sense that a heavier bullet will keep on keep'n on

 

[Deaf Smith]

Check to make sure your 180gr loads don't keyhole. If the rifling twist is to slow they will.

200 gr loads tend to do just that.

Now for self defense that may not be so bad but for longer range shooter it is.

Deaf

 

[Super Sneaky Steve]

I had the same idea and I'm going to do some testing with my chrono soon. Currently I have a slow burning H110 in my 180 grain loads but I'll make some with HS6 and see if it's better.

Heavier bullets are usually less effected by shorter barrels as a general rule so we'll see.

I"ll be using a 3" SP101 as well.

 

[sugarmaker]

For penetration you need sectional density (mass divided by area). heavier bullets in a given caliber will generally penetrate deeper if construction is the same AND they are properly stabilized (meaning they spin fast enough)

Knockdown and transfer are generally associated with frontal area. 45ACP has lots of frontal area and, in ball form, will penetrate well. Expanding bullets...here's where the arguments start...penetration vs frontal area / fragmentation / expansion. Entire books have been written and bar fights started on this subject.

Me...I like big, wide slugs that go through things, I shoot 45ACP ball for defense and seirra 220FPJ 44 mags for hunting (the jackets come off but the lead stays intact). Next gun will be a 50 S&W that I plan to use some of my lead supply casting bullets for.

 

[VA27]

I'm a fan of the Federal 180gr CastCore cartridge. I've used it in my short SP101 and 6" Model 28. A hole at each end of the wound channel = more hot blood coming out and more cold air going in.

 

[Missionary]

Greetings
If I was going this way for a defense situation then I would be launching a 180 -200 soft cast grainer so it would open up all it could. A fast powder like Unique or ACC #5 should get good velocity without a huge fireball like 296.
The old 38S&W with a 200 grainer was figured to do the same.. but never had enough velocity to really thump hard enough. One of the reasons the caliber.41 Short Colt came along was to put into a medium frame revolver a fatter bullet with slightly more weight and a larger case capacity with BP.
The 44 Special with a 240 grainer at 900 fps is a known fight stopper. No reason a 180-200 grainer in .357 at 900 fps would not also be a good option.
Mike in Peru

 

[788Ham]

ATLDave,

Per post #7, you're saying the shorter barreled revolver doesn't get to use all of the combustion given a longer barreled revolver? When that bullet jumps from the cylinder, across to the forcing cone and then into the barrel, thats all the faster that bullet is ever going to go. The gap between the cylinder and the forcing cone allows the burnt powder and gases to escape, thats it! The bullet isn't going to gain speed like in a rifle barrel. This is why a lot of revolvers have had such a problem with the frame getting eaten away from around the forcing cone, too much heat and flame from higher pressures and hotter powders being used.

 

[zxcvbob]

Check to make sure your 180gr loads don't keyhole. If the rifling twist is to slow they will.
200 gr loads tend to do just that.
Now for self defense that may not be so bad but for longer range shooter it is.

If you can get the bullet stabilized in the air, and doing loopy-loops within an inch or two of penetrating a soft target, you are golden. (heavy British .38S&W loads were supposed to do that; also Russian AK-74's)

 

[ATLDave]

Per post #7, you're saying the shorter barreled revolver doesn't get to use all of the combustion given a longer barreled revolver? When that bullet jumps from the cylinder, across to the forcing cone and then into the barrel, thats all the faster that bullet is ever going to go. The gap between the cylinder and the forcing cone allows the burnt powder and gases to escape, thats it!

Really? So one expects velocities to stay the same or fall as barrels get longer in revolvers?

 

[Deaf Smith]

As a general rule the longer the barrel the higher the velocity until all the powder is burned, then the pressure starts dropping and in time bore friction will be greater than the pressure thus the velocity will the actully drop as the barrel gets longer.

This happens when you get such as .45 ACP in 16 inch barrels. 12 or so inches is about optimum.

Deaf

 

[Strykervet]

I understand that a 140gr. magnum load is the optimum load in a .357 magnum snub. Can't recall where I read it, but some study was done and it turned out the 140 was the best bullet in the snub. I have 140gr. Corbons in my 340PD. But due to recoil, I practice mostly with plain fmj 158gr. specials.

In the 686 6", I prefer the 125gr. XTP. 1700+fps is smoking. On the other hand, I used a 140gr. XTP and got 5 out of 7 shots on a sillhouette at 300m!

 

[ATLDave]

As a general rule the longer the barrel the higher the velocity until all the powder is burned, then the pressure starts dropping and in time bore friction will be greater than the pressure thus the velocity will the actully drop as the barrel gets longer.

Yeah, that's consistent with what I thought. Another poster suggested that this wasn't the case with revolvers due to the cylinder gap. I'm willing to learn, but that was news to me.

 

[MCgunner]

For penetration you need sectional density (mass divided by area). heavier bullets in a given caliber will generally penetrate deeper if construction is the same AND they are properly stabilized (meaning they spin fast enough)

Knockdown and transfer are generally associated with frontal area. 45ACP has lots of frontal area and, in ball form, will penetrate well. Expanding bullets...here's where the arguments start...penetration vs frontal area / fragmentation / expansion. Entire books have been written and bar fights started on this subject.

Me...I like big, wide slugs that go through things, I shoot 45ACP ball for defense and seirra 220FPJ 44 mags for hunting (the jackets come off but the lead stays intact). Next gun will be a 50 S&W that I plan to use some of my lead supply casting bullets for.

So, in your world where frontal area is the only important factor in "knock down" or whatever, why do you hunt with a .429" bullet when you could be using a more effective .451" bullet? Just wondering. In your world, it would seem, the .45ACP would be more effecting on all targets than any .429" bullet like the .44 magnum.

Me, I handgun hunt with a .30-30 Contender. It never takes more than one shot and they're usually DRT. .308" seems to work. Just sayin'....

 

[MCgunner]

Per post #7, you're saying the shorter barreled revolver doesn't get to use all of the combustion given a longer barreled revolver? When that bullet jumps from the cylinder, across to the forcing cone and then into the barrel, thats all the faster that bullet is ever going to go. The gap between the cylinder and the forcing cone allows the burnt powder and gases to escape, thats it!

Seems to be a lot of misconception on this board. Longer barrel revolvers do indeed produce significantly better velocity. I've done the chronographing, but didn't really need to to figure THIS out. Not much gas is lost at all percentage wise at the barrel/cylinder gap. If you think all the gas is lost at the barrel/cylinder gap, explain the blinding flash at a magnum revolver's MUZZLE.

From http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=100

1. 3 inch S&W J frame

a. Item 19A/20-180gr. Hard cast LFN = 1302 fps
b. Item 19B/20-170gr. JHC (jacketed hollow cavity) = 1299 fps
c. Item 19C/20-158gr. Jacketed Hollow Point = 1398 fps
d. Item 19D/20-125gr. Jacketed Hollow Point = 1476 fps

2. 4 inch S&W L frame Mt. Gun

a. Item 19A/20-180gr. Hard cast LFN = 1375 fps
b. Item 19B/20-170gr JHC = 1411 fps
c. Item 19C/20-158gr. Jacketed Hollow Point = 1485 fps
d. Item 19D/20-125gr. Jacketed Hollow Point = 1603 fps

3. 5 inch S&W model 27

a. Item 19A/20-180gr. Hard Cast =1398 fps
b. Item 19B/20-170gr. JHC = 1380 fps
c. Item 19C/20-158gr. Jacketed Hollow Point = 1457 fps
d. Item 19D/20-125gr. Jacketed Hollow Point = 1543 fps

4. 6 inch Ruger GP 100

a. Item 19D/20-125gr. Jacketed Hollow Point = 1707 fps

 

[Cosmoline]

The bullet gains velocity in longer barrels, but not because of "unburned powder" as some have suggested. The smokeless burns almost instantly, but the velocity increases as the gas forces the bullet down the bore.

that it is heavier-for-caliber that penetrates better

Exactly. It's sectional density, which plays a key role in penetration.

180's out of a .357 are interesting, but most of those bullets are either hardcasts that do not expand at all or bullets designed to expand when fired from a long barreled hunting handgun or carbine. The only heavy .357's I know of designed for good expansion at low velocities were the old heavy Black Talons, but the SXT's didn't replicate the heavies when they made the switch.

But there are a lot of 158's available for short bbl's which work very well.

As an aside, the original CCW revolvers were the 19th century "bulldog" style which often chambered very heavy soft lead slugs with weak powder charges. They were highly effective at close range, but the notion of a very large, slow soft lead round has few fans these days. Most want high vels jacketed expanders or deep penetrating harcasts. The closest modern loading would be something like a .44 Special with a heavy soft lead slug.