Quantcast
  1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

180 grain 357 and short barrel

Discussion in 'Handguns: Revolvers' started by lobo9er, Oct 28, 2011.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. lobo9er

    lobo9er Member

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    3,225
    Location:
    Earth, Currently
    All right I had a thought. !80 grain out of a 3inch sp101 wont use all of its powder so I've been told. so, will this generate a "45 acp effect" heavier bullet (for a 357) moving slower (for a 357) leaving more kinetic energy with the target, instead of wasting energy passing through a target? not sure if that made sense. Fired some 180 grain today which lead me to this, and was awesome. If I win the lotto or become a reloader I would pllnk with 180 grainers all day instead of 38's.
     
  2. DPris

    DPris Member

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2007
    Messages:
    4,449
    I don't think it makes much sense. :)
    Denis
     
  3. DWFan

    DWFan Member

    Joined:
    May 1, 2008
    Messages:
    614
    A 125gr bullet at 1150 fps generates 367 ft/lb of muzzle energy.
    A 180gr bullet at 950 fps generates 361 ft/lb of muzzle energy.
    The 125gr load will have a "sharper" recoil due to the additional powder and quicker bullet acceleration. The 180gr however can retain its velocity for a longer distance.
     
  4. lobo9er

    lobo9er Member

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    3,225
    Location:
    Earth, Currently
    but those #'s would have been out of a 6 inch test barrel right? so the 180 grainer would be moving alot slower out of a 3 inch barrel. someone told me that a 357 out of a short barrel doesnt use alot of its powder so the bullet moves closer to 38's speed. so i'm thinking 180 grain or even 200 grain out of a short barrel would be moving slower therefore giving less chance of penciling through a target. (Or not.) i was just thinking the 45 acp claim to fame is that it is a large bullet moving slow (in the bullet world) so that it wont pass through a target leaving a target with all of its kinetic energy right? or I'm off my rocker. :)
     
  5. zxcvbob

    zxcvbob Member

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2007
    Messages:
    5,061
    Location:
    S.E. Minnesota
    If anything, you've got it backwards. The heavier bullet will have more momentum. So it will penetrate a lot deeper, and in fact still retain a lot of its initial energy when it punches thru the other side.
     
  6. DC Plumber

    DC Plumber Member

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2010
    Messages:
    390
    Location:
    NE of The Frozen Tundra
    Hmmm, I'd say, if you are accurate with it and the blast or lack there of makes you feel that it is a good option, then carry it. The only flaw I see is if it is a hard cast bullet, then yaa, it might just make a nice .357 hole through your target, which might make it bleed out, but not make for an immmediate stop to the threat. Maybe Winchester 180 ammo loaded with the 180 partition might work well. Given that the media is reporting that a gajillion people are overweight, using a heavy slow bullet might be the way to go.

    I'm not saying this is the case, but it seems like "the magic bullet" is less important than the fact that you actually carry your gun and are able to hit what you want with it. I know we've all heard this numerous times, but I think it's worth repeating.
     
  7. ATLDave

    ATLDave Member

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2011
    Messages:
    3,118
    It's counter-intuitive, but my understanding is that a heavier bullet for a given caliber will have more penetration, while the lighter/faster bullet will have more rapid/reliable expansion. Thus, a 180 is more likely to have the momentum to continue through the target. A 125 is more likely to have the energy to violently expand the projectile and have a chance at a TWC/BPW/"shock" effect beyond mere hole-punching. Different people have different views about the likelihood/reliability of the latter, so some want penetration uber alles. That's one reason why different, rational people will choose different bullet weights.

    As I understand it, there is also an additional factor with short-barrelled guns. The bullet simply doesn't have as much time in the barrel, so the time that the energy of the gunpowder combustion can exert force on the base of the bullet is reduced. (That's why longer barrels generally mean higher projectile velocities.) A heavier bullet, by virtue of being slower, gives the gunpowder more time to act on it as it travels. Thus, a heavier bullet can end up with more momentum than a lighter bullet with the same gunpowder behind it. Then there's the whole science of powder selection, which I know nothing about...
     
  8. lobo9er

    lobo9er Member

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    3,225
    Location:
    Earth, Currently
    Am I wrong with my idea of how a 45 acp works? I'm still learning so gotta ask stupid questions.
     
  9. ATLDave

    ATLDave Member

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2011
    Messages:
    3,118
    There is nothing magical about a .45. It "works" the same as any other bullet.

    Bear in mind, though, that it is heavier-for-caliber that penetrates better. That's because, all else being equal, a wider bullet will penetrate less. (Think about it. Imagine a nail and a coin of equal weight and hardness. Which will penetrate better - the nail end-on or the coin face-on?) This is all quantified in things like sectional density and, to some degree, ballistic coefficient. But the concept is straightforward.

    A 185 .45 is relatively light for the caliber. So it will have a greater tendency to stay in the target, expand violently, and stretch tissue (perhaps to the point of tearing). A 230 .45 is relatively heavy for the caliber, so it will move slower in the air, but with a greater tendency to keep going within the target medium.

    There is nothing you can do to make a .357 bullet terminally perform exactly like a .45 performs. That doesn't mean they can't have the same effectiveness, just that they'll do it differently. If you make a .357 heavier to match .45 weight, you will increase sectional density and make it more penetrative. If you keep the weight the same and increase caliber, you will make it less penetrative. Make sense?
     
  10. MCgunner

    MCgunner Member

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2005
    Messages:
    24,953
    Location:
    The end of the road between Sodom and Gomorrah Tex
    180 XTP out of my 2.25" SP101 gave me 1300 fps/662 ft lbs. The heavier the bullet, the slower it accelerates, and the more of the peak pressure it catches. That load is 13.8 grains AA#9 under a Hornady XTP/JHP 180 grain. This load only clocks 1400 fps/785 ft lbs from my 6.5" Blackhawk. I hunt deer and hog with it and it's deadly way past 50 yards. It groups 4" at 100 yards from the bench. I will not hunt those animals with my .45ACP, not enough umph.

    Look at Buffalo Bore if you want similar performance from a short barrel in a heavy load and you don't handload.
     
  11. lobo9er

    lobo9er Member

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    3,225
    Location:
    Earth, Currently
    Alright I guess I was mixed up. I thought the heavierand slower the more of a chance a bullet has a chance to stay with a target and not pass through. but.. it makes sense that a heavier bullet will keep on keep'n on
     
  12. Deaf Smith

    Deaf Smith Member

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2004
    Messages:
    4,362
    Location:
    TEXAS!
    Check to make sure your 180gr loads don't keyhole. If the rifling twist is to slow they will.

    200 gr loads tend to do just that.

    Now for self defense that may not be so bad but for longer range shooter it is.

    Deaf
     
  13. Super Sneaky Steve

    Super Sneaky Steve Member

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2011
    Messages:
    250
    I had the same idea and I'm going to do some testing with my chrono soon. Currently I have a slow burning H110 in my 180 grain loads but I'll make some with HS6 and see if it's better.

    Heavier bullets are usually less effected by shorter barrels as a general rule so we'll see.

    I"ll be using a 3" SP101 as well.
     
  14. sugarmaker

    sugarmaker Member

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2010
    Messages:
    532
    Location:
    VT
    For penetration you need sectional density (mass divided by area). heavier bullets in a given caliber will generally penetrate deeper if construction is the same AND they are properly stabilized (meaning they spin fast enough)

    Knockdown and transfer are generally associated with frontal area. 45ACP has lots of frontal area and, in ball form, will penetrate well. Expanding bullets...here's where the arguments start...penetration vs frontal area / fragmentation / expansion. Entire books have been written and bar fights started on this subject.

    Me...I like big, wide slugs that go through things, I shoot 45ACP ball for defense and seirra 220FPJ 44 mags for hunting (the jackets come off but the lead stays intact). Next gun will be a 50 S&W that I plan to use some of my lead supply casting bullets for.
     
  15. VA27

    VA27 Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2006
    Messages:
    1,854
    Location:
    Slovenly Manor, Dungheap-Upon-The-Hill
    I'm a fan of the Federal 180gr CastCore cartridge. I've used it in my short SP101 and 6" Model 28. A hole at each end of the wound channel = more hot blood coming out and more cold air going in.
     
  16. Missionary

    Missionary Member

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2011
    Messages:
    300
    Greetings
    If I was going this way for a defense situation then I would be launching a 180 -200 soft cast grainer so it would open up all it could. A fast powder like Unique or ACC #5 should get good velocity without a huge fireball like 296.
    The old 38S&W with a 200 grainer was figured to do the same.. but never had enough velocity to really thump hard enough. One of the reasons the caliber.41 Short Colt came along was to put into a medium frame revolver a fatter bullet with slightly more weight and a larger case capacity with BP.
    The 44 Special with a 240 grainer at 900 fps is a known fight stopper. No reason a 180-200 grainer in .357 at 900 fps would not also be a good option.
    Mike in Peru
     
  17. 788Ham

    788Ham Member

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2010
    Messages:
    3,206
    Location:
    Hills west of Denver
    ATLDave,

    Per post #7, you're saying the shorter barreled revolver doesn't get to use all of the combustion given a longer barreled revolver? When that bullet jumps from the cylinder, across to the forcing cone and then into the barrel, thats all the faster that bullet is ever going to go. The gap between the cylinder and the forcing cone allows the burnt powder and gases to escape, thats it! The bullet isn't going to gain speed like in a rifle barrel. This is why a lot of revolvers have had such a problem with the frame getting eaten away from around the forcing cone, too much heat and flame from higher pressures and hotter powders being used.
     
  18. zxcvbob

    zxcvbob Member

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2007
    Messages:
    5,061
    Location:
    S.E. Minnesota
    If you can get the bullet stabilized in the air, and doing loopy-loops within an inch or two of penetrating a soft target, you are golden. (heavy British .38S&W loads were supposed to do that; also Russian AK-74's)
     
  19. ATLDave

    ATLDave Member

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2011
    Messages:
    3,118
    Really? So one expects velocities to stay the same or fall as barrels get longer in revolvers?
     
  20. Deaf Smith

    Deaf Smith Member

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2004
    Messages:
    4,362
    Location:
    TEXAS!
    As a general rule the longer the barrel the higher the velocity until all the powder is burned, then the pressure starts dropping and in time bore friction will be greater than the pressure thus the velocity will the actully drop as the barrel gets longer.

    This happens when you get such as .45 ACP in 16 inch barrels. 12 or so inches is about optimum.

    Deaf
     
  21. Strykervet

    Strykervet member

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2010
    Messages:
    1,610
    I understand that a 140gr. magnum load is the optimum load in a .357 magnum snub. Can't recall where I read it, but some study was done and it turned out the 140 was the best bullet in the snub. I have 140gr. Corbons in my 340PD. But due to recoil, I practice mostly with plain fmj 158gr. specials.

    In the 686 6", I prefer the 125gr. XTP. 1700+fps is smoking. On the other hand, I used a 140gr. XTP and got 5 out of 7 shots on a sillhouette at 300m!
     
  22. ATLDave

    ATLDave Member

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2011
    Messages:
    3,118
    Yeah, that's consistent with what I thought. Another poster suggested that this wasn't the case with revolvers due to the cylinder gap. I'm willing to learn, but that was news to me.
     
  23. MCgunner

    MCgunner Member

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2005
    Messages:
    24,953
    Location:
    The end of the road between Sodom and Gomorrah Tex
    So, in your world where frontal area is the only important factor in "knock down" or whatever, why do you hunt with a .429" bullet when you could be using a more effective .451" bullet? Just wondering. In your world, it would seem, the .45ACP would be more effecting on all targets than any .429" bullet like the .44 magnum.

    Me, I handgun hunt with a .30-30 Contender. It never takes more than one shot and they're usually DRT. .308" seems to work. Just sayin'....:D
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2011
  24. MCgunner

    MCgunner Member

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2005
    Messages:
    24,953
    Location:
    The end of the road between Sodom and Gomorrah Tex
    Seems to be a lot of misconception on this board. Longer barrel revolvers do indeed produce significantly better velocity. I've done the chronographing, but didn't really need to to figure THIS out. Not much gas is lost at all percentage wise at the barrel/cylinder gap. If you think all the gas is lost at the barrel/cylinder gap, explain the blinding flash at a magnum revolver's MUZZLE.

    From http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=100

     
  25. Cosmoline

    Cosmoline Member

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2002
    Messages:
    23,648
    Location:
    Los Anchorage
    The bullet gains velocity in longer barrels, but not because of "unburned powder" as some have suggested. The smokeless burns almost instantly, but the velocity increases as the gas forces the bullet down the bore.

    Exactly. It's sectional density, which plays a key role in penetration.

    180's out of a .357 are interesting, but most of those bullets are either hardcasts that do not expand at all or bullets designed to expand when fired from a long barreled hunting handgun or carbine. The only heavy .357's I know of designed for good expansion at low velocities were the old heavy Black Talons, but the SXT's didn't replicate the heavies when they made the switch.

    But there are a lot of 158's available for short bbl's which work very well.

    As an aside, the original CCW revolvers were the 19th century "bulldog" style which often chambered very heavy soft lead slugs with weak powder charges. They were highly effective at close range, but the notion of a very large, slow soft lead round has few fans these days. Most want high vels jacketed expanders or deep penetrating harcasts. The closest modern loading would be something like a .44 Special with a heavy soft lead slug.
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2011
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page