I'm new to black powder and just purchased an 1851 navy revolver. I bought it used from a local shop. Took it out for the first time yesterday and fired 20 rounds and had lots of problems. Here goes, I tried cci #11 caps and they fell right off so I tried cci#10 caps and they still fit loose but better than the 11s. When the gun fired it shredded the caps and pieces of the caps kept falling into the action. Also it almost seemed as if the hammer was pulling the caps off of the nipples at times. Only one or two chambers would fire on the first strike, some of the caps had to be struck 3 or 4 times before they would go off. Also It broke, I believe it is the hand & spring that broke because now the cylinder rotates with the hammer at full cock and it wont lock up. I'm quite frustrated. I talked to the shop I got it from and they will fix the hand & spring if thats whats wrong with it. What can I do to make this thing reliable?
1851 navy .36 cal. pietta having problems
- Thread starter eugene
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Acorn Mush
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Eugene, definitely take it back to the shop and have them fix whatever they can. Sounds like the cylinder lock spring (under the triggerguard) is broken since you say the cylinder freely rotates with the hammer at full cock. The fix should be easy. The hammer spring might be weak also, which would contribute to your problem of needing multiple strikes to fire caps.
Regarding caps, I suggest you try Remington #10. They seem to fit the smaller revolver nipples better in my experience. Alternatively, if you keep the revolver consider replacing the nipples with a set made by Treso which are available from Track of the Wolf. They are a bit pricey but worth it. Number 11 caps fit the Treso nipples quite well.
Caps normally shred and sometimes fall into the works as you have experienced. A stiff hammer spring will help keep the cap remains on the nipple. As you recock, raise the muzzle and roll your wrist to the right so any loose cap fragments will fall clear of the action.
Good Luck! I hope this helps.
Regarding caps, I suggest you try Remington #10. They seem to fit the smaller revolver nipples better in my experience. Alternatively, if you keep the revolver consider replacing the nipples with a set made by Treso which are available from Track of the Wolf. They are a bit pricey but worth it. Number 11 caps fit the Treso nipples quite well.
Caps normally shred and sometimes fall into the works as you have experienced. A stiff hammer spring will help keep the cap remains on the nipple. As you recock, raise the muzzle and roll your wrist to the right so any loose cap fragments will fall clear of the action.
Good Luck! I hope this helps.
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CaptainCrossman
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taking it back is not the solution-because you will have these same problems and more, from most of the import Colt-pattern replica guns made. The Remington 1858 is far stronger and more reliable. But having said that, I own many Colts and they need to be worked to make them reliable.
caps falling off- buy 6 new stainless steel caps, they fit the nipples well, and also resist mushrooming by the hammer
caps jamming- with the Colt this is due to the mainspring being too weak. Use a super strong mainspring with added tension, available from some outlets- it will be harder to cock back but the pressure of the spring holds the caps down on the nipples when fired. What you are experiencing is HAMMER BLOWBACK caused by a weak mainspring. The original 1800's Colts had very strong mainsprings, I have a few such springs and they are very hard to cock back, but will have zero jams from caps.
gun jammed/cylinder turning when cocked all the way- the bolt is not engaging the cylinder, sounds like the bolt spring is broken, easy to replace part.
if you want to get into shooting these guns, you have to also get into fixing them- that's their nature.
I'm fairly certain your current problem (failure to lock up in battery in full cock) is not due to a problem with the hand or hand spring. The trigger/bolt spring (aka cylinder stop spring) is the more likely candidate by far. However, there's also a very good chance that the problem is a cap fragment in amongst the action parts, jamming the bolt in place.
As for the caps: I've never heard of stainless steel caps, so don't spend a lot of time trying to find any. They don't exist. The advice to change to Treso nipples is good; they're high quality. They're made of a proprietary beryllium bronze alloy and are very hard. They exhibit extreme resistance to gas cutting (erosion of the flash channel) and deformation from hammer strikes. The flash channel is very small compared to other regular nipples and does an excellent job of concentrating the hot gases from the cap deflagration. They are available from Track of the Wolf; you will need the ones with the metric M6x0.75 thread. The Treso part number is 11-50-10, or PIR-A in Track of the Wolf's numbering system.
If CCI No. 11's were too large then Remington No. 10's will not fit either. Your best bet is Remington No. 11 or RSW No. 1075. I'd try new caps before changing the mainspring.
I recommend Dixie Gun Works or VTI Gun Parts for action parts.
As for the caps: I've never heard of stainless steel caps, so don't spend a lot of time trying to find any. They don't exist. The advice to change to Treso nipples is good; they're high quality. They're made of a proprietary beryllium bronze alloy and are very hard. They exhibit extreme resistance to gas cutting (erosion of the flash channel) and deformation from hammer strikes. The flash channel is very small compared to other regular nipples and does an excellent job of concentrating the hot gases from the cap deflagration. They are available from Track of the Wolf; you will need the ones with the metric M6x0.75 thread. The Treso part number is 11-50-10, or PIR-A in Track of the Wolf's numbering system.
If CCI No. 11's were too large then Remington No. 10's will not fit either. Your best bet is Remington No. 11 or RSW No. 1075. I'd try new caps before changing the mainspring.
I recommend Dixie Gun Works or VTI Gun Parts for action parts.
Fingers McGee
Member
+1 Mykeal won't steer you wrong
The possibles shop is another source for Treso nipples, and Taylor's is another source for parts.
Ginormous
Member
Taylor's ran me ragged on some parts the last time I ordered. Didn't seem too inclined to solve the lack of inventory either, so I canceled with them and went with VTI Gun Parts. Much better experience.
Track of the Wolf for the Treso AMPCO nipples was another good experience.
Track of the Wolf for the Treso AMPCO nipples was another good experience.
junior geezer
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i've never heard of stainless steel caps either. i do have stainless steel after-market nipples in my rep 1860 army. purchased them several many years ago and don't know if they are still to be had. they work fine with any #11 cap i've tried. uncle mike's mfg.
Fingers McGee
Member
I've had good results from both suppliers. There have been occasions when Taylors has had parts that VTI was out of and vice versa. Availability of parts is at the mercy of shipments from Italy. Manufacturers seem to work at their own pace and could care less about the needs of the consumer. I finally canceled some items from VTI cause they couldnt get the parts from Italy. Taylors didnt have em either.
My experience with cap fit differs from Mykeal. There is a difference in taper for various makes of nipples. I have found that if the CCI#11s are too big and the CCI#10s are too small the Remington #10s are likely to work. The RWS#1075 is just a little tighter than the Rem#10 and the CCI#11 is just a little bigger. Half my guns will take the CCI#11s and half will take the RWS#1075 but ALL of them take the Rem#10 as it has more "give" as it is seated due to having a fairly thin wall that is presplit so it swells easier as it snugs up when seated. The CCI@10 and the RWS#1055 are too small for anything I own. If I could not get the Rem#10 to fit a gun I replaced the nipples with Uncle Mike's/Butler Creek stainless nipples or the Track Of the Wolf SS nipples. One of my guns has the Treso nipples. All the aforementioned nipples like the Rem#10. If a nipple cone has a slight or steep taper which cap fits depends on the length and diameter of the cap. Your mileage WILL vary.
I've published this data several times at various places. This data is the result of at least 20 different samples of each brand and size. The measurements were taken with a vernier caliper. The distance across the opening is very difficult to make and is probably no better than 0.002 to 0.004 inches in error.
Other people have taken similar measurements with greatly varying results, and the one thing we are sure of is that cap sizes vary greatly between brands and even between batches within a given brand and size. You don't get 3 decimal place precision for 4 cents apiece. Unfortunately that means that once you've found a cap that fits a particular nipple (nipple, NOT gun), you have no guarantee that the next batch of that brand and size will still fit as well.
I need to emphasize that caps fit on nipples, not guns. That seems a bit smart aleck, but we all tend to want to talk about how a certain cap fits our Acme .42 cal Super, when in fact they fit on the nipple that the Acme Gun Co. chose to put on that gun on the particular day the gun was built and two years later they may be using a completely different nipple because they changed purchasing managers. So, what fits my guns has nothing to do with what fits your guns.
Hellgate's point about taper is important. The caps themselves generally do not have tapered walls; all of the nipples I've seen are cone shaped. The amount of taper makes all the difference in the world; the short caps will fit better on the nipples with the larger taper, given that the tip is not too wide.
Other people have taken similar measurements with greatly varying results, and the one thing we are sure of is that cap sizes vary greatly between brands and even between batches within a given brand and size. You don't get 3 decimal place precision for 4 cents apiece. Unfortunately that means that once you've found a cap that fits a particular nipple (nipple, NOT gun), you have no guarantee that the next batch of that brand and size will still fit as well.
I need to emphasize that caps fit on nipples, not guns. That seems a bit smart aleck, but we all tend to want to talk about how a certain cap fits our Acme .42 cal Super, when in fact they fit on the nipple that the Acme Gun Co. chose to put on that gun on the particular day the gun was built and two years later they may be using a completely different nipple because they changed purchasing managers. So, what fits my guns has nothing to do with what fits your guns.
Hellgate's point about taper is important. The caps themselves generally do not have tapered walls; all of the nipples I've seen are cone shaped. The amount of taper makes all the difference in the world; the short caps will fit better on the nipples with the larger taper, given that the tip is not too wide.
The Possible shop is a great source for the nipples. They are great to deal with, fast shipping. Don't worry, I have had all of what you speak of with a Pietti 1860 Colt. The guys here will walk you through it all, and you will learn a great deal in the mean time. Don't be upset by your gun, who you got it from, or your choice. Maybe I'm just weird but I have had a wonderful time working through it all, but then I love fixing things and have been trained as a "millwright", I do have a lot more years of doing so then I will admit to. Here's one rule of thumb with Pietti's always plan on replacing the nipples when you buy one, I don't know why but their nipples aren't very good, otherwise they are wonderful firearms. As to the caps falling off, don't blame Pietti, for that issue, blame on Mr. Colt, He designed it or one of his employees long before we were even thought of. there are fixes for the "falling nipples", but they do require some "gun smithing or millwright" skills. If you wish to links to these let me know.
Forgot this, yes stainless nipples can be had at "Cabela's" just order the stainless nipples for thier 1858 Stainless Remi.They have the same threads and size, but please to use a good "antiseze" compound,( forgive the spelling) unlike metals tend to lock together over time in threaded connections. But use just a little.
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