1860 Fully Fluted Cylinder Question Before I Make An Offer

[Foto Joe]

For a while now I've been on the hunt for an 1860. So there's a gun show this weekend here in Cody and there's a LOT of Black Powder guns. Of course before I even get in the main door there's a table in the entry with nothing other than two Uberti 1860's. Both guns have 1996 proof stamps on them but one of them is stamped on the bottom of the frame instead of the right hand side like I normally see. The other thing is, both have fully fluted cylinders, kinda like you'd see on an 1862 Police except these are full size frame and 44 caliber.

Condition on both is good and lock up and timing seems fine. Of course I couldn't break out my screw driver and disect them but from outward appearances they look pretty good.

Here's my issue: What's with the full fluted cylinders? Aren't most 1860's equipped with rebated cylinders and sometimes even roll engraved with rebated cylinders? Are the full fluted cylinders "rare" and a lucky find or is it just something that Uberti decided to do in the 90's? The price on each is $200 and I don't think that's such bad price although I'd probably offer $150 and see what the counter is. Since the show is only a block from my house I'm gonna see what kind of answers I get from this post. Somebody give me some info on those fully fluted cylinders will ya?

 

[Prairie Dawg]

Here's part of the blurb fom the Uberti 1860 page:

"In the meantime, Colt worked to perfect his cap and ball revolver. The sleek 1860 Army was considered to be the ultimate combat handgun of the percussion era. The single action revolver was designed around a lightweight frame, but chambered for the more powerful .44-caliber ball. The first single action army models featured fluted cylinders, and later models incorporated belted cylinders for added strength and creeping loading levers for easier loading."

Uberti still lists them in their catalog:
http://www.uberti.com/firearms/army_navy_and_pocket_navy.php

So, I guess they are still making them.
MSRP is $10 more.

I had one once.
Shot well.
Butt ugly IMHO
Replaced the cylinder with a standard Army cylinder.
Sold the cylinder to someone who liked it.
It's unusual, so I got a premium price for it.
--Dawg

 

[junkman_01]

Foto Joe,

The full fluted cylinder is definitely weaker than the non-fluted one. All 1860 Army cylinders are rebated, even the fluted ones. All the non-fluted cylinders were roll engraved with the Texas Navy scene. The half-fluted cylinders are good looking to me, but the full fluted ones I do not care for. JMHO

 

[45-70 Ranger]

Joe,

If I remember right there were some made back in the real days by Colt. But I kinda like 'em. They're different from the standard round/engraved. Your choice buddy!

Wade

 

[Tommygunn]

What is the difference between the two on the upper right side except one is $339 and the one below is $349?? They look exactly the same to me. I am refering to the page in Prairie Dawg's link BTW.

 

[Foto Joe]

Alrighty then...this is why THR is probably the best source for info on what we do out there!! Great info guys, I appreciate it.

If I was just a little more on the ball I suppose that I could have hit the Uberti site myself and seen that they still make 'em but thanks to Prairie Dawg for doing it for me, as well as the info.

I think I'll wander back down there in the morning, have a closer look and probably make an offer. I've got to say, I'm not overly impressed by the looks of the fully fluted cylinder myself, but on the other hand, they're different aren't they? Besides, if I get one I can still be in the market for an 1860 with a rebated cylinder can't I?

I also spotted a Uberti Henry in 44-40 that got my attention. A little out of my price range but I put in an offer to trade my Citori Trap gun that doesn't get used any more.

 

[arcticap]

There's some interesting photos & info. about fluted cylinders in these threads:

1. http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=569771&highlight=fluted

2. http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=460722&highlight=fluted

3. http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=503325&highlight=fluted

4. http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=140113&highlight=fluted

FWIW, if it were a 2nd Gen. Colt 1860, the difference in value is ~$75 between a fluted and non-fluted.

I compared the 2nd gen Colt values. this is for a 100% rated firearm.
1860 blued $775
1860 blue w/fluted cyl $850
1860 Stainless steel $900

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=456943&highlight=fluted

Also, Fingers McGee mentioned in 2009 that VTI only sold the 1/2 fluted Uberti cylinder. That would seem to indicate that the full fluted cylinders are the least common.
http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=5518558&postcount=17

 

[junkman_01]

Foto Joe,

ALL 1860 Army cylinders are rebated. That's how Colt got .44 caliber from what is a .36 caliber frame. Fluted, half-fluted, or non-fluted, ALL are rebated.

 

[Old Fuff]

Back during the late 1850's Colt was conducting various ways to make a lighter (saddle) holster revolver that still equaled the current "holster" pistol of the day, which we call the Dragoon.

He started by removing metal where ever he could to lighten the Dragoon. This didn't prove to be a good answer. Then they made a prototype 1851 Navy in .40 caliber. Better, but not the answer. Finely they came up with a .44 revolver on the basic Navy platform with a rebated cylinder that was full-fluted to reduce a few more ounces of weight. But they soon dropped the flutes to speed up production during the Civil War. Cylinder strength - then and now - had nothing to do with it.

The original fluted 1860's are fairly rare and command big bucks. The reproductions usually don't go for more then a standard model unless one is a second or third issue Colt in mint condition.

 

[Prairie Dawg]

Pics are wrong.
For $339 you get a regular cylinder and an all-brass gripframe of a regular cylinder and a brass TG & steel backstrap.

For another $10, you get the fluted cylinder, brass TG & steel backstrap.
--Dawg

340400
Steel
.44
8"
Case-Hardened Frame, Steel Backstrap, Brass Trigger Guard $339

340410
Fluted Steel
.44
8"
Case-Hardened Frame, Steel Backstrap, Brass Trigger Guard $349

340480
Brass
.44
8"
Case-Hardened Frame, Brass Backstrap and Trigger Guard $339

 

[ontarget]

I have a full fluted 1860. I didn't really care for the look myself but I got it cheap sooooo. Anyway, it shoots as well as my nonfluted guns do and doesn't seem any weaker. And as a bonus, the regular cylinder from my 1851 works great in the gun too.

 

[junkman_01]

You must have one of those .44 cal. 1851's.

 

[StrawHat]

I have a pair of full fluted Uberti 1861s. These were built in the early 70s.



I like them, but they are not 1860s.

Regarding 1860s, I have never heard that being full fluted made them weaker than the standard cylinder. I know that the originals had some problems back in 1860 and 1861 and Colts replaced the cylinders with regular round ones but I have never heard that any of the full fluted replicas had problems. The origianl problem was caused by the primative methods of steel making compared to todays more refined methods.

 

[junkman_01]

Even with 'modern' methods, anytime you remove steel to make something lighter, you weaken it. I did not say that modern fluted cylinders were unsafe, only weaker.

 

[Foto Joe]

As far as being weaker is concerned, I personally think it's a moot point. As stated above, modern steel making is far different than that during the War of Northern Aggression. Old Fuff brings up a point that makes a lot of sense, it's easier to produce a round rebated cylinder than it is to flute one, no matter the weight savings. Besides, although I live in Buffalo and Grizz territory I won't hunt either with this gun, the government frowns on that around here.

Strength issues aside, with todays modern reproductions, beauty is in the eye of the gun holder. I've been referred to as "eccentric" on more than one occasion so having something "different" isn't too much of a stretch for me. So...in a couple of hours I'll dress up like an eskimo and slog through the snow with a brass hammer and a nipple wrench and see if they'll let me pull the barrel and have a closer look. I wouldn't mind having both of them, they'd make a nice matched pair but I'll reign in my temptation to make an offer for the pair and settle for which ever one shows the least amount of abuse. That is if they're even still there of course. If not, the hunt will continue.....

 

[junkman_01]

Foto Joe,

I did not mean to disparage your enthusiasm for these guns, I guess I'm not as eccentric as you. I don't care much for full fluted cylinders. Now half fluted I could go for!

 

[Foto Joe]

junkman 01,

Good Lord man nothing could be farther from the truth!! As far as you not being "eccentric", I humbly dis-agree, if your weren't you'd be shooting smokeless. We're all a little bit off around here and just because you personally don't care for certain modifications that Pyro finds pleasing doesn't you're not as "off" as the rest of us.

Truth be told, I respect and value the opinions and information from everybody who has posted on this thread. That's the reason I put it up in the first place. THR has educated me both in history and the technology behind the guns we all are addicted to.

If I make the deal this morning I'll post a pic. Unfortunately I won't be able to feed the thing until I get down to Texas in a week or so. Currently my wife is wondering exactly where I'm going to stash all the guns in the 5th wheel.:banghead:

 

[junkman_01]

Currently my wife is wondering exactly where I'm going to stash all the guns in the 5th wheel.

I KNOW you will find the room even if you have to leave all your clothes, except the ones you are wearing, behind.

 

[StrawHat]

The weakest point on a cylinder tends to be the thinnest point of the cylinder. On Colts and clones this is where the cylinder notch is cut. That is where the rupture will begin. The fluting does not result in thinner metal than the notches.

 

[junkman_01]

It sure looks like the flutes are deeper into the cylinder than the bolt notches to me....

​

 

[Foto Joe]

There's Another New Member Of The Family

Back I went with a buddy to the gun show and as luck would have it both of the 1860's were still right were I'd left them yesterday. Although I'd brought my brass mallet and a nipple wrench the first thing I did was to thumb the wedge on one and she popped right out just like it should. The bore and cylinders are spotless and there are no drag marks on the bolt notches or peening on either the bolt or notches. It looks like a pretty good gun so I offered $150. The counter was $175 and after a slight pause for effect the deal was done.



Like I said before, I won't be able to feed it any powder until we get down to Texas in a week or so. It's ten freaking degrees out right now and snowing flakes the size of bunnies so shooting today ain't gonna happen!!:banghead:

As a side note; I introduced this buddy of mine that went with me to Black Powder this summer with a Dragoon and a fake Navy and he's smitten. He's been drooling over the Cabela's catalogue and of course his eye fell on a gun he's fired, the "Confederate Navy". He hasn't ordered it yet so as we're walking around what do I spy but an ROA and better yet the price tag is $325. After we walked away from the booth I told him to offer $250 and pay whatever the counter offer was. If he didn't like it I'd buy it off him for $350 next spring when we get back!! The guy countered with $265 and I about fell out of my snow pacs.

Needless to say, my buddy Dan now owns his firs Black Powder gun and it's an ROA. And I hope he hates the thing so much he sells it to me in the spring!!

 

[junkman_01]

Foto Joe,

Congratulations. It looks good and you got a super deal.

 

[StrawHat]

Foto Joe,

Good deal on a nice revolver. I like the 1860 and am looking for a full fluted one to compare to my round cylinder pieces. Someday I'll be able to post a photo of mine. Keep us in the loop on range reports and such.

 

[45-70 Ranger]

Good going Joe! Like that shooter!

Wade

 

[rcflint]

Fluted

Yes, the flutes go deeper than the notches, but the flutes are in between the chambers, the notches are over the chambers...

I like the looks of the fluted cylinder, but do NOT like the looks of the half flute that Pietta uses, which is sharp edged like a modern cartridge gun.

The unfluted, roll engraved cylinder will fit and function in the fluted Army (or Navy) revolver, and I use them in matches when I preload extra cylinders to save reloading time between stages.

If it is at all weaker, the modern steel in the Uberti is more than capable of handling the max black powder charge.