1862 Colt Navy Pocket Conversion
- Thread starter WIN65
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Tommygunn
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Win65, you may have better luck if you post questions about blackpowder guns in our blackpowder section.
BTW welcome to TheHighRoad.
BTW welcome to TheHighRoad.
This is going to be quick, but I can do more research later if no one beats me to it.
The Colt 1862 Navy Pocket Conversions included at least 5 different Types. Some were made from new parts, while others from surplus cap & ball parts, left over from the Civil War. Some had loading gates, where others didn't. Some had larger hammer screws then others, and some had ejector assemblies where others didn't.
However from a point of interest to you, some Type 5 revolvers without loading gates were serial numbered in the 1849 Pocket Model series between 257,000 to 329,000, with the majority at or over 300,000. Most had 3 1/2 barrels without ejector assemblies, and were chambered for .38 Center Fire.
That at least will do for a start.
Oh! and welcome to the High Road forum...
The Colt 1862 Navy Pocket Conversions included at least 5 different Types. Some were made from new parts, while others from surplus cap & ball parts, left over from the Civil War. Some had loading gates, where others didn't. Some had larger hammer screws then others, and some had ejector assemblies where others didn't.
However from a point of interest to you, some Type 5 revolvers without loading gates were serial numbered in the 1849 Pocket Model series between 257,000 to 329,000, with the majority at or over 300,000. Most had 3 1/2 barrels without ejector assemblies, and were chambered for .38 Center Fire.
That at least will do for a start.
Oh! and welcome to the High Road forum...
I think that's more then theory. It seems highly likely. Also they're is a good possibility they had numbered frames that were case hardened and couldn't easily be renumbered.
The whole purpose in making these revolvers was that at a time when they couldn't simply write surplus parts off their taxes they wanted to somehow get their money out of them. This was about the only way they could do it. As time went by they had to make some new parts (especially barrels it seems) to keep going. They didn't quit until the early-middle 1880's.
The whole purpose in making these revolvers was that at a time when they couldn't simply write surplus parts off their taxes they wanted to somehow get their money out of them. This was about the only way they could do it. As time went by they had to make some new parts (especially barrels it seems) to keep going. They didn't quit until the early-middle 1880's.
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
Colt had to get guns on the market. They were behind the curve on the cartridge guns, due in no small part to Sam's refusal to buy the Rollin White patent and having to wait for it to expire before entering the breech loading cartridge foray. They had percussion guns, they had percussion parts and thanks to Charles Richards and William Mason, they had a way to convert them to fire cartridges.
I think the "breaking down finished pistols" makes more sense than using numbered but unused frames. The reason is that there were no finished, hardened and numbered frames in parts stock. Frames and parts were made, then the "white" frames and other parts were final fitted and numbered; they were then disassembled, finished (including case hardening), and re-assembled using the numbers to keep the fitted parts together. * Assuming that finished but unsold guns were broken down, new parts would have been numbered to match the frame.
Jim
*Once in a while the final assembler's eyes got tired and we see (for example) number 123456 on a part when the rest of the parts have 123455. Of course, the old "cavalrymen around the campfire cleaning guns" story is more romantic than a tired Colt worker after 11 1/2 hours of putting guns together.
Jim
Jim
*Once in a while the final assembler's eyes got tired and we see (for example) number 123456 on a part when the rest of the parts have 123455. Of course, the old "cavalrymen around the campfire cleaning guns" story is more romantic than a tired Colt worker after 11 1/2 hours of putting guns together.
Jim
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
According to McDowell's book, many were made from numbered but unused and unfinished frames.
PS, the two patent dates are for Charles Richards' conversion (1871) and William Mason's improved ejector (1872).
http://www.google.com/patents/US128644
PS, the two patent dates are for Charles Richards' conversion (1871) and William Mason's improved ejector (1872).
http://www.google.com/patents/US128644
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There is little doubt that for percussion guns, frames, barrels and trigger guards were assembled and numbered at the same time, so the idea that frames were numbered, stored, and then taken out for assembly doesn't work.
A glance at any Colt of that period will show that those three numbers (and the ones on the backstrap/butt) were put on at the same time. The fitter held the stamps in his fingers (you can even see the curve of his thumb) and marked the three main parts one right after the other.
Jim
A glance at any Colt of that period will show that those three numbers (and the ones on the backstrap/butt) were put on at the same time. The fitter held the stamps in his fingers (you can even see the curve of his thumb) and marked the three main parts one right after the other.
Jim
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
According the McDowell's book, there are three serial ranges for the pocket conversions.
1. 35,500 to 47,000 range - The original percussion range of the concurrently manufactured models 1862 Pocket Police and Pocket Navy between 1867 and 1873, that were converted to metallic cartridge.
2. 1 to 19,000 - The 1862 Police and Pocket Navy that were produced as original metallic cartridge conversions from unused and unnumbered percussion from factory inventory with newly manufactured percussion parts.
3. 273,000 to 328,500 - The model 1849 Pocket revolvers from which frames (re-milled for rebated cylinder), grip straps, and some internal parts were used with newly manufactured conversion parts to produce conversions or cartridge revolvers.
Sounds like the OP's falls into the #3 range. It mentions the use of unused frames, numbered and unnumbered but no mention of breaking down complete guns. The only difference between the 1849 and 1862 Pocket models is the water table. So it stands to reason that Colt would have unfinished frames on hand that could be assembled into either model. With or without machining the water table for the .36's.
1. 35,500 to 47,000 range - The original percussion range of the concurrently manufactured models 1862 Pocket Police and Pocket Navy between 1867 and 1873, that were converted to metallic cartridge.
2. 1 to 19,000 - The 1862 Police and Pocket Navy that were produced as original metallic cartridge conversions from unused and unnumbered percussion from factory inventory with newly manufactured percussion parts.
3. 273,000 to 328,500 - The model 1849 Pocket revolvers from which frames (re-milled for rebated cylinder), grip straps, and some internal parts were used with newly manufactured conversion parts to produce conversions or cartridge revolvers.
Sounds like the OP's falls into the #3 range. It mentions the use of unused frames, numbered and unnumbered but no mention of breaking down complete guns. The only difference between the 1849 and 1862 Pocket models is the water table. So it stands to reason that Colt would have unfinished frames on hand that could be assembled into either model. With or without machining the water table for the .36's.
Colt might well have had unfinished frames on hand, but they were not numbered. The numbering was not done until the guns were fitted prior to final finish and assembly. Numbered but unfinished guns might have been in work, but certainly not that many, as batches were usually of 100 guns.
We have no way of knowing how many finished but unsold guns were on hand at the factory when the company decided to convert them. Serial numbers would be no help, since guns were shipped at random from stock, and many high number guns had undoubtedly been sold as percussion revolvers.
Incidentally, the book mentioned below does claim that fully finished Model 1849 revolvers were converted, including milling the frame for the rebated cylinders. Those would presumably be those with high serial numbers. This is borne out by close examination of the serial numbers. If you have a copy of that book, look on page 79, fig. 6-36; note that the barrel number is NOT from the same number set as the trigger guard and frame numbers - it is close, but not the same. That means that the guns #317605 and #318023 were numbered and completed, then converted with a new barrel which was numbered to match the old frame.
FWIW, my only gun of that type is no help, as it is a .38 RF Type 5, serial # 410x, identical to #1804 on Page 78, Fig 6-34, of the Breslin, Pirie, Price book. Like that one, mine is marked "36 CAL" on the trigger guard.
Jim
We have no way of knowing how many finished but unsold guns were on hand at the factory when the company decided to convert them. Serial numbers would be no help, since guns were shipped at random from stock, and many high number guns had undoubtedly been sold as percussion revolvers.
Incidentally, the book mentioned below does claim that fully finished Model 1849 revolvers were converted, including milling the frame for the rebated cylinders. Those would presumably be those with high serial numbers. This is borne out by close examination of the serial numbers. If you have a copy of that book, look on page 79, fig. 6-36; note that the barrel number is NOT from the same number set as the trigger guard and frame numbers - it is close, but not the same. That means that the guns #317605 and #318023 were numbered and completed, then converted with a new barrel which was numbered to match the old frame.
FWIW, my only gun of that type is no help, as it is a .38 RF Type 5, serial # 410x, identical to #1804 on Page 78, Fig 6-34, of the Breslin, Pirie, Price book. Like that one, mine is marked "36 CAL" on the trigger guard.
Jim
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Rather than edit the previous post, I will use this one for an addition. In the center picture from the OP, look at the "0" in the barrel number and in the other numbers. On the barrel, it is more squared off, where on the other parts, it is more oval. There are very subtle differences in the "3" as well. So that gun was almost certainly a finished percussion pistol that had the frame reworked and the barrel replaced with a new barrel.
Jim
Jim
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