1873 trapdoor

[another okie]

I just inherited a Springfield 1873, serial number 24xxx. It has two bands and is a full length rifle. On the barrel are some marks that I suppose are proof or inspection markings: V, a P with a foot, a couple of marks I can't identify, and another P. According to the web site on springfields, the serial numbers for 1873s should start higher than that.

What do the marks mean?
Is it .45-70 caliber?
What is the ramrod for, if it's breech loading?
If I take it to a gunsmith and he says it's safe to shoot, will I lower the value by shooting it? It has no sentimental value.
What else do I need to know about it?

 

[Jim Watson]

I am not a collector or expert but...

Serial numbers for 1873 Springfield started at 1, according to Flayderman, so you are ok there. They did not apply proof marks to the barrel until no 50,000. Maybe yours was refurbished and re-proved; the Army sure wasn't throwing away usable guns or parts in those days.

Caliber is .45-70 Government

As I understand it, V means "viewed", the gun was correct in appearance and gauge measurements. P means "proved", it was shot with an overload. I suspect the "foot" is a stylized eagle's head used in markings at the time.

The ramrod is for cleaning. Gotta clean a black powder weapon religiously. Later they issued broken case extractors that were knocked out with the ramrod.

Shooting with proper ammunition will not lower the value unless it is in pristine as new condition. Proper ammunition is name brand factory loads with 405 grain bullets. The "cowboy" stuff you see advertised is lightly loaded and won't strain the works even that much. Avoid the 300 grain bullets, they are somewhat hot and the light bullet probably won't shoot well in a Trapdoor anyhow. There are subtle differences between .45-70 Springfield, .45-70 Winchester, and .45 2.1" Sharps ammunition. They are safely interchangeable but the Trapdoor does best with mil-spec ammo. The which I do not know where to buy. There is a book on the .45-70 government ammunition, its history and reproduction by handloading.
http://www.the45-70book.com/

 

[Jim K]

Just FYI, I think the "view mark" (the "V") was applied after the proof, and was actually the final inspection mark for the unstocked barrel and receiver; the barrelled action was proved ("proofed"), with an extra heavy load, then "viewed" (inspected) to make sure that it had stood up to the proof load and nothing had been damaged or broken in the process.

The inspector's cartouche on the stock was the acceptance marking, showing that the complete rifle met all the requirements and was accepted into U.S. service.

Jim

 

[another okie]

Thanks. This place is a great resource.

 

[another okie]

Under a bright light I found an imprinted cartouche on the left side marked 1883, so I guess that's either when it was made or reworked. I took it to a gunsmith, who said it was in the best condition he'd seen for an original trap door. He said the bore was very good and it was safe to shoot standard pressure smokeless cartridges in it, but to beware of ammo for modern firearms only. He did find some rust in the chamber and removed it. We fired it a couple of times and it shoots high at 50 yards, so I'll need to try some different ammo and see how each one does.

I found some PMC ammo for Cowboy shooters that duplicates the original factory load, a 405 grain lead bullet at 1200 fps or so. I also found on line that buffalo arms sells complete black powder cartridges for it, which I may have to try just to see what it's like.

 

[JohnBT]

There's one for sale and the ad says "Lock dated 1883". John

www.collectorsfirearms.com/al1163.htm

"1st Model rec. Serial number 36476. Early cartouche. $1250."

 

[Jim K]

There has been quite a controversy over on the CSP site about those 1883 and 1884 guns. For one thing, SA lockplates after the Civil War were not dated, so these are an anomaly. Flayderman has a section on them, stating that they are not an Armory product, but that no one knows who did put them together or when.

One CSP poster insisted that if Flayderman couldn't prove where they came from, he could not say they were not made at Springfield (in other words, Flayderman, and anyone who accepts his view, must prove a negative). If they could not be proven as not made at Springfield, then they must be accepted as genuine, according to this gentleman. (Not my view, which is that if not known to be genuine - and there are no records of any such - they must be assumed to be among the thousands of guns made up from surplus parts by dozens of companies in the late 19th and early 20th centuries.)

Anyway, that gun itself appears to be a mixmaster. The hammer is clearly from a pre-1872 model (probably a Model 1868) and the unriveted end of the cam latch would indicate that it was originally made for a gun with a thicker Civil War lockplate. A mishmash like that would never have been turned out at the Armory. All in all, it has every appearance of a made up gun; it might be a decent shooter, but I wouldn't pay much for it.

Jim

 

[JohnBT]

Learn something new here every day. Thanks. John

 

[another okie]

On mine there is no date on the lockwork except the model 1873 designation. The 1883 cartouche I mentioned is in the wood on the left side above the trigger. It is pretty hard to read, but appears to be square and have some letters above the numbers 1883.

 

[JohnBT]

The plot thickens.

John